Changes done to files visible in other applications

[frlindla]

When I make changes to a jpg file in Imatch, I want it to be visible in other applications. For example geotagged photos. Can this be done with setting Imatch to write to the xmp-file and not the jpg-file itself? And how can I do that?

[Carlo Didier]

xmp files are not meant for use with JPG files. In JPGs, the metatdata is normally embedded into the file itself.
Did you write-back your changes?

[frlindla]

Yes I did

[Mario]

When you write back metadata, all metadata is stored in the JPEG file, including the GPS information, EXIF, XMP.
It automatically becomes visible in all other applications. No need to do anything special.

What are you doing, exactly, and what does not work and in which application?

Tip: You can always see the metadata contained in the JPEG in the ExifTool Command Processor using the List Metadata preset.

PS.: Make sure you have not accidentally enabled the "Preserve date/time of original file" under Edit > Preferences > Metadata.

[frlindla]

Hello again.
I have investigated this now. The application I am talking about is Mylio. I have used Imatch a lot lately to update wrong gps-locations, add titles, captions, keywords. I discovered that updated gps locations in Imatch for jpeg files did not show up correct in map in Mylio (not updated).

Mylio is XMP-based. It prefers to use XMP sidecar files for ALL photos, not just RAW. While this makes Mylio internally consistent (and probably much faster for syncing & updating) - this is different from many other editors such as Lightroom and iMatch. These apps prefer to store metadata embedded within the original file whenever possible (usually everything except RAW).

As I understand, Mylio team will work for a solution for this.

But my question is: Can Imatch be set up to write/read changes to xmp insted of embedded in file?

[frlindla]

By the way: Titles, descriptions and keywords added in Imatch for jpeg and heic files show up in Mylio. The fact that updated gps location in Imatch doesn`t show up in Mylio must be a bug I guess.

[Mario]

Mylio is XMP-based. It prefers to use XMP sidecar files for ALL photos, not just RAW. While this makes Mylio internally consistent (and probably much faster for syncing & updating) - this is different from many other editors such as Lightroom and iMatch. These apps prefer to store metadata embedded within the original file whenever possible (usually everything except RAW).

This is not correct.

GPS data must be stored in a dedicated section in the image file itself (like EXIF and legacy IPTC data). This is the same for JPEG as it is for RAW images.

The XMP metadata record for the file must contain copies of EXIF and GPS and IPTC.
Because there is a corresponding XMP field for all important EXIF and GPS fields and also for all non-deprecated legacy IPTC fields.

IMatch automatically populates the corresponding XMP tags when ingesting your file, mapping EXIF and GPS according to the XMP specification and the rules and recommendation of the MWG.
This produces a very rich and complete XMP record in the database.

See Metadata Storage and Metadata Write-back in the IMatch help for all details.
I'm sure the Mylio documentation has something similar, detailing exactly how they store, process and synchronize metadata.

During write-back, IMatch first updates the existing GPS and EXIF data in the image itself from the database contents.
Then it either embeds the XMP record in the image (for file formats like JPG, TIF, GIF, PNG, PSD, PSB, DNG where this is required by the XMP standard) or saves it to a XMP sidecar file (RAW formats and similar).

This way IMatch ensures that the native EXIF/GPS metadata embedded in the image is always in-sync with the corresponding data in the XMP record for the file.
This ensures optimal interoperability across all applications and platforms.

The last time I've looked at Mylio's metadata handling, what they did was, eh, minimalistic.
The XMP records they produce contain only a few fields. Basically the limited number of fields they allow you to edit in their application.
They don't follow standards, the don't import existing EXIF and GPS data in the original image into the XMP record they maintain for your file.
And most likely they don't update the native EXIF/GPS data in the file when they update the XMP record.
Not sure about this. Metadata handling is not one of the main purposes of Mylio, as far as I have learned.
This was about a year ago, so maybe they have made a big leap by now. Looking at your problem description, I don't think so.
You will notice this problem when you work with your files in software other than Mylio and run into problems.

When IMatch writes back metadata to your JPEG file, you can see the XMP record and the EXIF/GPS data by looking at the file in the ExifTool Command Processor in IMatch. You will find that both the XMP data and the native EXIF/GPS data in the file exist and are synchronous.

You can use the Metadata Analyst app to check your files for problems and out-of-sync metadata.

If IMatch has written GPS data, this data shows up in ExifTool, Photoshop, Lightroom, Affinity products and all other relevant applications on the  market.
If Mylio does not show it, I suppose they have a problem in their software.

[frlindla]

What about titles, descriptions and keywords? They showed up in Mylio for jpegs and heic files. Is this data stored in the xmp or the file itself?

[Mario]

Is this data stored in the xmp or the file itself?

There are 3 types of keywords. Legacy IPTC keywords are stored in the image itself (if the file has a legacy IPTC record).
Flat and hierarchical XMP keywords are stored in the XMP record. For JPEG files, the XMP record is embedded in the image.

Title and descriptions are stored in XMP, and mapped to EXIF and legacy IPTC as needed.
JPEG uses embedded XMP, HEIC/HEIF in a sidecar file I believe.

That is all explained in the help topics I've linked to above.
And as I wrote two times now, you can see the metadata IN YOUR FILE (EXIF, GPS, IPTC, XMP) if you would only just use the ExifTool Command processor.
I suggested that two times above already. Did you follow my advice? Because, in that case you would know what data is in your file. I cannot look into your file remotely.

[frlindla]

Sorry if I asked too much! Really thankfull for all your help. Of course, I read a lot in the help topic, but not all topics are easy for all to understand or do something to solve. Not all of us are experts like you;)

[Mario]

We are no experts.
But we cannot look into your file remotely.
You can look into it and let us know what it contains.
You can run the Metadata Analyst to check your file for problems.
We cannot do this.

All answers are thus based on guesswork.
You talk about JPG (image with embedded XMP) and HEIC (with sidecar file by default. Not sure what Mylio expects here).

Maybe just attach a JPG which fails in Mylio so I can tell you what it contains?
If the file is > 2MB, provide a download link.

[bekesizl]

It is a silly behaviour of Mylio (beside using XMP sidecars also for JPEG), that if you change a field inside Mylio (e.g. title, caption, GPS coordinates, credit), every change to these fields from the outside world is ignored.
Mylio is protecting the data added inside Mylio to these files.

The only way I found you can undo this is:

• Delete the XMP sidecar of the file (this will revert it to the metadata state of the JPG inside Mylio)
• Write back the changes in IMatch again (by making a small, irrelevant change to a field like addign a space)
• Mylio will reimport the data from IMatch to its database

Another way is to reimport the file completely to Mylio:

• Write back the wanted changes to the files in IMatch
• Move the file to a folder not scanned by Mylio in Explorer
• Wait, until the file disappears from Mylio (assuming, Safe file delete is switched off)
• Move the file back to its original location
• Wait, until Mylio reimports the file

[Mario]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
This can of course cause all kinds of issues. Maybe Mylio has not been designed with interoperability in mind and they just assume that you only use Mylio. Walled garden and all that...?


Side Node:
IMatch has metadata protection too - to prevent users from accidentally overwriting changes which exist in the database but have not been written to disk.
This happens if a user manipulates metadata in multiple applications, but without taking care to flush the changes in each application to the file/sidecar file first. See Settings for more info.
In IMatch you can force the metadata reload by selecting the files and then pressing Shift+Ctrl+F5 > Reload Metadata.

[bekesizl]

I wouldn't say, that Mylio's intention is to close you in.
For RAW+JPG pairs the interchange with other applications works as expected, as long as the XMP sidecar is updated.
There is also an option to "save metadat to file=copy data in the sidecar to the file itself" for JPG files.

There are many users, who use Mylio together with Lightroom, but rather as an easier synchronisation tool/face tagger, as a metadata editor.

It is only strange for JPG files, where for the changed fields Mylio considers the data in the (non standard) XMP sidecar to be more accurate then the one in the file.
I also tested, that if you change the value inside the XMP sidecar, the changes are updated inside Mylio (but as IMatch will never update the XMP sidecar of a JPG file, I haven't listed it as a solution).

This "protection feature" is also not documented. I found it by trial and error after this case was mentioned on the Mylio forum by the OP.

[Mario]

JPG, TIFF, PNG, GIF, PSD, PSB, DNG and some other file formats must use embedded XMP metadata (XMP record stored in the file itself).
I wonder why Mylio does not implement the standard process.

[sinus]

...
It is only strange for JPG files, where for the changed fields Mylio considers the data in the (non standard) XMP sidecar to be more accurate then the one in the file.
...

That is very silly, from my point of view.
Most people works with jpgs and hence a software should deal with the standard and not create xmp-files for jpgs.

I think, Mylia first looked for a cool visual presentation and did not look deep into the standards, specially Metatdata-handling is very poor, if I read the specs from they page.
And not, they try to do it better with the metadata, but a lot of users has a lot of images and have to deal with it.

But "amateur photographers" do not care a lot about metadata, professionals does (or must). Hence professionals does not use Mylio a lot, but for other peoply mylio is quite popular.
This is just my impression, of course nothing, what I could prove. 

[bekesizl]

I don't like the behaviour with JPG & co.
It is most probably reasoned with performace: it is much quicker to replicate 80 2kbyte XMP files to the other devices when metadata is changed, then to replicate 80 4-8MByte JPG files.

You can also consider this behaviour as the write-back in IMatch. There you only write the changes to the database (by default), you have to execute write-back manually.
Mylio writes the changes to the database and XMP files, but can "write-back" the changes via a menu command.
The only drawback is, that you don't get support to select the files, that need write-back.
After the write-back, you have all your data in the JPG files. (Not counting this "protect data" case.)

There are feature requests to change this behaviour. They are planning to implement "differential replication": replicate the changes to the files, not the whole new changed file.
Until then, we have to live with it (or use IMatch to change metadata and use Mylio only for replication).

[Mario]

Until then, we have to live with it (or use IMatch to change metadata and use Mylio only for replication).

That's what I would recommend!

I was just trying to be friendly when calling their metadata management minimal yesterday...
Actually, it is quite bad. Not conforming to any standards, not importing EXIF and GPS data into XMP as they should etc. They just give a shit, IMHO.

I would not let Mylio touch the metadata of any of my files.
But that's just me. You may have different priorities and good reasons for using Mylio.

That being said, since the problems in your metadata are 100% the fault of Mylio, I suggest you take your metadata problems to their support forum.

IMatch is just the software that makes you aware of the metadata mess you create by using this software.