keywords and versions

[jln]

I would like to be able to apply keywords to a master file and have those keywords also applied to all versions of the file. Is that possible?

[Mario]

Sure.

If you have already set up Relations so IMatch knows what you consider a master and a version, just enable the Propagation to copy keywords from the master to its versions.

[jln]

Thanks. I found the Propagate command, and it worked well. The help shows a menu where you can specify exactly what should be propagated. I couldn't find that menu. How do I get to it?

[Mario]

You usually don't need to propagate keywords manually. This is done automatically when you add/edit keywords in the Keyword Panel or otherwise.
Other propagation takes place during write-back.

To configure which metadata, Attributes, categories etc. you propagate from the master to versions, please see File Relations: Versioning and especially Propagation.

[jln]

If I modify the stars on a master image, they are immediately propagated to versions, but keywords are not. If I manually propagate from the commands window, both stars and keywords are propagated. I have read the section about propagation, which explains what data should and should not be propagated, but I can't find where I tell iMatch what to propagate and what not to either automatically or manually.

[thrinn]

You define what you want to propagate with you File Relation rules (Preferences > File Relations). Select a Relation Definition used for versioning (marked with [V]) and click on the Versioning tab. There is a (quite lengthy) "What to propagate list". When you scroll down, you will find one entry for "XMP Keywords" which must be set if you want to propagate keywords. More on this is explained here.

@Mario: Are keywords really propagated without a write-back? "XMP keywords" is at least marked with a star as an on-write attribute. A quick check showed that I have either to propagate manually or perform a write-back to get my keywords copied from master to version.

[Mario]

Keywords are propagated (and also mapped from hierarchical keywords to XMP and IIM3 IPTC) as a comfort feature (in the database only).
This avoids confusion for the user and potential issues with mapping.

Elements marked with a * in the propagation list are propagated during write-back. It says as much directly under the list in the dialog box.

[jln]

It's still not working for me. In the master file, the keywords are in "Dublin Core." No metadata shows in the versions. Master and version indicators are present in both.

[Mario]

Did you actually change a keyword for the master in IMatch?
Propagation is performed when you change data. Not after just ingesting the file (unless you manually force a propagation).
Select the master, click on the pen in front of the keyword input field (under the list of keywords as the top) in the Keyword Panel to mark the keywords as modified.
Then write-back the master. The keywords should no be transferred to all versions.

[jln]

It's the write back that I had failed to do. Since it is not needed for rating to propagate, I hadn't realized that it was required for keywords.

[Mario]

IMatch propagates some things in-memory for convenience. Not metadata (see the propagation dialog. Everything with a * is propagated during write-back. This is explained in the dialog and avoids guesswork. It is also documented in the corresponding help topic (<F1> in that dialog).

Metadata is propagated from the master to versions after the master has been written. IMatch then copies the data to propagate from the master to the versions via ExifTool.
This is also documented in the write-back help in detail.

[jln]

Okay, but it has mysteriously stopped working. "Show all versions" verifies that the master/version relation is correct. When I add a keyword to the master file, and click write back, a window shows indicating that two files are being updated, but there is no change to the version. "Propagate Data to Versions" also does not work.

[Mario]

Show us your version settings (screen shot) and ZIP+attach the log file from the session where you experienced this.
Better: switch IMatch to debug logging via (Help > Support) and repeat the operation. See log file for more info.

[jln]

I very much appreciate you looking into this. I know iMatch is great program; I'm looking forward to moving farther along the learning curve.

[Mario]

Your screen shot does not show which metadata you propagate. This is the stuff on the "Version" tab. Please add that info.
I see several successful manual (?) propagation operations in the log file. But no write-back?
Did you write back some files to actually trigger the propagation? Or what did you do instead?

[jln]

I have spent some time searching for the "Version" tab until I found it ("Versioning") beside "Detection" in the Relations tab of the Preferences window. I often have difficulty finding things in iMatch that I know exist.

"XMP keywords" was not clicked. Doing so has fixed my problem. You doubtless realize I am a newbie when it comes to metadata and copying data, and I am concerned that copying some metadata is dangerous.

• Is it safe to select "All XMP data"?
• Is it safe to copy "EXIF GPS data"?

[Mario]

Use only "All XMP data". It includes GPS data.

Note: Metadata propagation is considered to be somewhat of an expert feature.
Most software out there does not allow users to copy metadata, or does not offer any related options. For reasons.
Copying metadata between files requires some know-how about how things are related.

[jln]

But if I want to copy keywords, I must copy the XMP field for that, right?

I've read more about XMP metadata in the help files. Rather than "All XMP Data," would it be better to select "XMP, disabled crop," or "XMP without LR/Camera Raw data"? Which?

Suppose I just want keywords and the location that I get from the iMatch Maps app so that location can be seen in the map of another file viewer. Should I copy the EXIF GPS data?

[Mario]

XMP without is a good preset. Unless you want Lightroom camera RAW data.

[jln]

Almost everything is working correctly. I have set XMP without Lightroom/Camera Raw data, and everything I want is propagated from the masters to the versions.

There is one unexpected thing, however. When I view the versions in the Files Panel after the propagation, they have the pencil icon showing indicating the need for write back. Hovering over that says that XMP Lightroom Hierarchical Subject needs to be written. After clicking the pencil, it goes away, but there is no Lightroom Hierarchical Subject field in the metadata.

Why would I need to write back version data after that data had just been propagated from the master files, and then no such data is written? Why does it say there's a need to write Lightroom data when I have chosen for it to be excluded?

[Mario]

Hierarchical keywords are part of the Lightroom namespace (XMP:lr:Subject). Adobe invented them and then they became an industry standard.
To propagate them as well, also propagate the Lightroom data or tick the box in front of "XMP Keywords".

[jln]

What had surprised me was the need to write back the information on the versions after they had been propagated from the masters. Is that the normal behavior?

[Mario]

Since you did not propagate hierarchical keywords, IMatch created them from the flat keywords when re-ingesting the version. Hence, write-back needed 'cause of hierarchical keywords.

[jln]

The keyword supposed to be written is "hierarchical subject." I can't find that in the metadata panel after its written. I can't find any metadata item for "subject."

[Mario]

The Keywords Panel shows hierarchical keywords.
The "Default" layout in the Metadata Panel also shows hierarchical keywords.

[jln]

Yes, but not hierarchical subject. The write back of the master file includes hierarchical keywords, and the metadata panel shows that they have been written to the versions. But the versions still require a write back of hierarchical subject,

When I use the viewer to look at an image a semi-transparent window shows that files metadata, but it also says "no subject."

I have searched for "subject" in the Help system and gone through several pages looking for how that is set. Some of the pages that come up don't even contain the word "subject."

How does one give an image a value for "subject," hierarchical or flat?

[jln]

I'm sorry. The window on the viewer says "Title: None," and "Label: None." I don't see either Title or Label in the Metadata panel or the Keywords panel.

Can "subject,"  "label," and "title" be set (or changed)? 

[Mario]

How does one give an image a value for "subject," hierarchical or flat?

Just use the Keywords Panel to add and edit hierarchical keywords.
IMatch takes care for the rest.

Also see Working with Metadata and The @Keywords Category in the IMatch Help System.

The XMP standard just happens to use the terms "subject" for keywords. And Adobe took that over when naming their hierarchical keywords hierarchicalSubject in the XMP spec.
No user bothers to call keywords ""subject". Some applications out there use the term "tag" for flat or hierarchical keywords, though. Just to add to the confusion. IMatch names keywords keywords, and only works with hierarchcial keywords internally - because they are the most flexible.

Can "subject,"  "label," and "title" be set (or changed)? 

To change the rating or label of a file, either use the corresponding controls at the top of the Metadata Panel, the drop-down in the File Window (See: The File Window: Manipulating Collections) or the associated keyboard shortcuts.

Changing rating, label and collections in the Metadata Panel:



Changing rating and label in the File Window:



To change the title of an image, change the value shown for title in the Metadata Panel.



Tip: The actual name of the underlying tag for metadata displayed in the Metadata Panel is shown in the tooltip:




If you have problems changing a rating or label or the title of an image in IMatch, I can only recommend to spend a bit of time reading the help (press <F1> in IMatch to open it) and also watching some of the free video tutorials available in the IMatch Learning Center: https://www.photools.com/imatch-learning-center/

[jln]

Thanks. I actually have been spending a lot of time with the help files.

I didn't have the metadata panel set to default. I'm not sure how it got changed. I suggest you consider putting a tool tip on the pull-down list where the view of the metadata is selected. I did notice that for the other items on the tool bar of the metadata panel that the help file does not show the icons; instead it shows words where each of the tools is described.

I selected seven files and entered a value in the metadata panel for the title. iMatch froze with "updating" appearing over the metadata panel. I had selected automatic write back in preferences because the help file indicated this would be done in the background. I left iMatch alone for over an hour, but it was still frozen. Rebooting fixed it.

[Mario]

IMatch usually does not freeze when writing back metadata. This is done in the background.
Please attach the log file (see log file) from that session so we can see what happened.
Also include details like how many files you had selected, some info about your PC etc.

The Default layout is selected by default in the Metadata Panel.
The first screen shot in the Metadata Panel show the camera dashboard and below it the rating, label and collection panel.
The topic The Standard Metadata Panel Layouts explains the standard layouts IMatch includes, and shows a screen shot of the Default layout directly below.

Of course a powerful software like IMatch offers many ways to shot yourself in your foot, e.g. by changing settings and then forgetting about it then then wondering.
There is little I can do about this. IMatch comes with a very extensive help system and the video tutorials in the Learning Center explain basic concepts, including working with metadata and keywords.

[jln]

I think the videos are excellent, and I have watched them at least twice. The help system is very impressive. I don't know of another program that has such an extensive help system. I feel that the although the help system is very good at explaining concepts and explaining how to achieve a result, I wish there were clearer instructions on how to execute the commands.

I am very impressed with the speed with which you answer posted questions. I don't know of another software system that responds so rapidly to questions. Without that, I would be much further in behind in being able to effectively use the program. I find it amazing that you have the time to answer all the questions, design the program and do the coding. I hope you don't burn out.

I agree that iMatch is a very complex program. Perhaps many of your customers have switched to it from another DAM and are, therefore, more familiar with the concepts and with metadata. I have been trying to educate myself about these topics, but it is a lot to absorb when I am also trying to organize many thousands of photos. I think it is incredible that one person has written and maintains such a program. I think similar praise is due to the individuals responsible for ExifTool and Vuescan, another program I use quite a bit.

[Mario]

This log file is from a normal IMatch start. Nothing else was done.
Keep in mind to secure the log file when you run into problems again. As outlined in the help topic about the log file, IMatch keeps one backup copy and overwrites the log file on each start.

[jln]

As I explained, when the program froze, I rebooted so that I could use it.

[Mario]

This is exactly the situation where you should copy the log file before restarting IMatch.
Rebooting is also very harsh. If IMatch really runs amok on your system, you can just kill it in the Windows Task Manager. No harm done.