Metadata corruption with PL4

DigPeter · January 01, 2022, 07:35:35 PM

Before I go through the tortuous process of getting sense from DxO, I wonder if any other users of PL4 have this problem.

Until recently I have not had a problem with this, but now any image edited in PL4 (I have not yet upgraded to PL5) has corrupted hierarchical keywords, each component of which appear as individual keywords. The two attachments show metadata before and after processing. This happens to original RAW images and to original jpgegs.

Mario · January 01, 2022, 07:47:32 PM

They definitely have rewritten and messed up your hierarchical keywords and the flat keywords, too.
Maybe this is some setting you need to configure so it knows how to map keywords on export?

I don't know much about PL, but from experience I know that proper metadata management is not one of their priorities...

JohnZeman · January 01, 2022, 07:59:27 PM

I used to use PhotoLab 4, I'm now up to version 5, and I've never had a metadata problem with either version but then I never do anything with metadata in PhotoLab. I do it all in IMatch.

Mario · January 01, 2022, 08:18:47 PM

Quote from: JohnZeman on January 01, 2022, 07:59:27 PM
(...) but then I never do anything with metadata in PhotoLab. I do it all in IMatch.

Smart move

Doing it "all" will most likely never work. That's why there is no (sub-par) image editor / RAW processor in IMatch. It would be futile to try to implement something that's even 30% of what PL or Lr or ... can do in the department of image editing. I concentrate on proper management and metadata handling, and that's already plenty to get right and it keeps my on my toes 365 days a year

DigPeter · January 01, 2022, 08:49:25 PM

Quote from: JohnZeman on January 01, 2022, 07:59:27 PM
I used to use PhotoLab 4, I'm now up to version 5, and I've never had a metadata problem with either version but then I never do anything with metadata in PhotoLab. I do it all in IMatch.

That is the problem. All my metadata is done in IM and PL is now mucking it about. I just hoped that someone had met this problem and knew how to fix it!

Do you convert/edit before before applying metadata?

DigPeter · January 01, 2022, 08:52:22 PM

Quote from: Mario on January 01, 2022, 07:47:32 PM
They definitely have rewritten and messed up your hierarchical keywords and the flat keywords, too.
Maybe this is some setting you need to configure so it knows how to map keywords on export?

I don't know much about PL, but from experience I know that proper metadata management is not one of their priorities...

I have looked in settings and the export module of PL, but cannot find any likely settings. Neither have I changed anything in IM or PL, except upgrade to IM 2021.

DigPeter · January 01, 2022, 08:59:48 PM

Quote from: Mario on January 01, 2022, 08:18:47 PM
Doing it "all" will most likely never work. That's why there is no (sub-par) image editor / RAW processor in IMatch. It would be futile to try to implement something that's even 30% of what PL or Lr or ... can do in the department of image editing. I concentrate on proper management and metadata handling, and that's already plenty to get right and it keeps my on my toes 365 days a year

I do not subscribe to Adobe and my, now out of date version of LR does not handle my raw files. So I have to use something else for conversion.

JohnZeman · January 01, 2022, 09:10:29 PM

Quote from: DigPeter on January 01, 2022, 08:49:25 PM
Quote from: JohnZeman on January 01, 2022, 07:59:27 PM
I used to use PhotoLab 4, I'm now up to version 5, and I've never had a metadata problem with either version but then I never do anything with metadata in PhotoLab. I do it all in IMatch.
That is the problem. All my metadata is done in IM and PL is now mucking it about. I just hoped that someone had met this problem and knew how to fix it!

Do you convert/edit before before applying metadata?

I first categorize and add metadata to my raws with IMatch. Only then do I send the raw images to PhotoLab which processes them. The processed raws are then exported from PhotoLab as temporary 16 bit TIFFs which I open in Affinity Photo to do my final editing.

Affinity Photo then exports the final optimized images as high quality JPGs to my IMatch database. If any metadata in the JPG has been altered by PhotoLab, it's replaced by IMatch when IMatch propagates categories and metadata to the JPG from the original raws. I've never had a metadata problem doing it that way.

PhotoLab shouldn't touch your raw files, it doesn't touch my Canon CR2 and CR3 raw images. Instead PhotoLab writes its changes out to a .dop sidecar file which IMatch treats as a buddy file but ignores any metadata in it.

jch2103 · January 01, 2022, 10:15:34 PM

@DigPeter - Which version of PL 4 are you using? I hadn't seen the keywords problem in PL4, but I'm currently using PL5 which does have this issue. There's been discussion of the issue on the PL discussion boards. DxO introduced more 'metadata management' functions in PL5, but they seem to have gotten ahead of themselves, with some resulting problems. I've reported them to DxO and I expect they will fix them, but it's a nuisance in the meantime.

I avoid working with metadata in anything besides IM, of course. PL5 includes a setting to avoid synchronizing metadata with the PL database and XMP sidecars. However, at the moment even with this set, PL5 does some re-writing of metadata in output images, specifically including dis-aggregating hierarchical keywords. The good news is that IM has tools to fix problems like this, but it would be far preferable if they hadn't occurred in the first place.

One of those tools is propagation, as John Zeman pointed out above. I may need to modify my propagation rules to address this.

UPDATE: I can confirm that PL 4.3.6.32 seems to have acquired the problem. I've reported this to DxO.

Ger · January 02, 2022, 09:34:47 AM

I also use PL 4.3.6.32 and have seen the same issue. I think I unchecked the setting Processing > Preserve metadata in XMP sidecars, which generates the PL-version without metadata.
I use IMatch for all metadata on the RAWs anyway, I can use propagation to fill the metadata in the version generated by PL4.

ger

Mario · January 02, 2022, 10:13:23 AM

Maybe DxO should bundle IMatch ...

Ger · January 02, 2022, 10:46:34 AM

Mario selling IMatch and going to retire?

Mario · January 02, 2022, 11:11:21 AM

I'm way too young to retire. My kind gets several hundred years old, after all. And I bore easily!

I just thought that if DXO would concentrate on editing and conversion and telling their user base that they should look at products A, B, C for powerful DAM functionality, this would be a good idea?!.
Maybe adding some official API functions to their software so DAM software could launch PL with selection of images etc., for a more seamless integration. That would be nice.

I was never a friend of "one does all" software. Never work for me.
Of course I understand that not all users need the same functionality, and sometimes a "bit" of DAM is enough (like Lr and similar apps do).
I have strong opinions, however, about things like proper metadata handling, support for industry and real standards, lock-in of customers due to proprietary file formats or data storage etc.

DigPeter · January 02, 2022, 11:53:55 AM

@JohnZeman
Thanks for the heads-up. I note that you use relationships to synch your metadata. I have not got around to using this because in the early days could not get it to work. Problem of old fogies and new technology!

DigPeter · January 02, 2022, 11:58:36 AM

@jch2103
Thanks - I have recently installed PL 4.3.6.32, but the problem started in and earlier version since I upgraded to IM2021. I look forward to DxO fixing it.

Belenos2017 · January 03, 2022, 03:14:02 PM

For a long time I used PL3 for Canon raw development and Imatch for all metadata operations without any problems. Recently I had an update to PL5 - at the first import in Imatch after development chaos in the metadata - therefore first back to PL3.

In PL5 I discovered new functions - see picture attached - but unfortunately no explanation for this nonsense! So that IMatch continues to handle the metadata correctly - what do I have to click on now, what not???