Batch processor - keywords

[graham1]

I have updated to 23.5.2  I have tried using the new tag sets in the Batch Processor, which are very welcome additions for my keywording for stock agencies.

I am finding that my (unwanted) Group Level keywords are being exported, even though "group level" is set to "yes" in the Thesaurus.

For group level keywords, "exclude in flat keywords" is set to "no" by default in the Thesaurus, greyed out, but even if you change this to "yes" by unsetting "group level" and then resetting it, the group level keyword still exports.

Am I doing something wrong?  How do I get ONLY keywords/synonyms which are not set to "group level" to export?  

Graham

[Mario]

Group levels don't become part of the hierarchical keywords. You won't see them in the Keywords Panel or the Metadata Panel and the Batch Processor will not see them either. Are you sure your group levels are set correctly?

[graham1]

I believe I have set this up correctly.  I attach 4 snapshots.  The first 2 are of how Keywords look in IMatch and the Thesaurus details, and a third showing the Batch Processor output in another application.  The 4th is my Batch Processor preset.

Do these give a clue as to the reason the Group Level keywords are exporting?

Thank you.

Graham

[graham1]

If it is any help, the "Weighted flat subject" field ({File.MD.XMP::Lightroom\weightedFlatSubject\WeightedFlatSubject\0}) has exactly the same behaviour: my Group Level keywords are included.  

My keywords have all been imported from Lightroom, and the group level keywords are in the format of being enclosed in square brackets.  When I import keywords into the Thesaurus, I tick the option that keywords in square brackets are to be Group Level keywords.

Graham

[Mario]

I'm not quite sure that I understand what you do and I cannot reproduce it.

If it is any help, the "Weighted flat subject" field ({File.MD.XMP::Lightroom\weightedFlatSubject\WeightedFlatSubject\0}) has exactly the same behaviour: my Group Level keywords are included. 

IMatch does nothing special with this tag. I actually have never heard about this tag before. This is something proprietary to Lightroom.

I have added three keywords from my thesaurus to an image. These keywords use a hierarchy with a group-level keyword at the top and one uses a hierarchy:



Independently from how I add these keywords (typing and selecting from the suggestions or clicking the corresponding entry in the thesaurus panel in the Keywords Panel), I'll and up with the keywords shown above. The top-level group level part is not added. woman is a synonym of female in my thesaurus.

I commit these changes.
When I now process the file with the Batch Processor using the "XMP: Hierarchical keywords as individual keywords" option you use, this happens:

IMatch writes back the original file (because I have changed keywords)
The Batch Processor produces the output file.
The Batch Processor utilizes ExifTool to copy metadata to the output file.

As expected, the output file shows these keywords:



So things are working as expected.

In your first screen shot you show the Keywords Panel full of keywords with group levels and even the [ and ] indicator Lightroom uses to export keywords I think. Where do these come from? If the keywords would have been added in IMatch, the group levels would never become part of the keywords in the file.

[graham1]

Mario,

Thank you for your reply.

Let me explain my starting point.  I exported Lightroom hierarchical keywords into the IMatch Thesaurus, replacing those supplied.  My top level keywords are all non-exporting in Lightroom and set to Group Level in IMatch.  My group level format is [001_ACTIVITY & CONCEPTS_] (which explains the square brackets in my screenshots).  Other group levels are all similarly [002_XXX_], and so on.

I assumed that (so long as XMP sidecars are updated in each programme as you go along), Lightroom and IMatch should each recognise keyword metadata created or altered by the other interchangeably - that is what the Help file indicates. 

If the keywords are created in Lightroom and the images are imported into IMatch, even with identical keywords having been added into the IMatch Thesaurus first, the Keywords Panel (Current Keywords) displays the full keyword paths up to and including the Group Level keywords.  This is as shown on my screen shots above.  If, however, as you have done, the keywords are added in IMatch itself, then the Group Level keywords are not shown, as seen in your screenshot.  The blue ticks in the keywords Hierarchical Keywords grid look  the same, but the output is different. 

This is easy to replicate. I created a small test catalogue of 6 images in Lightroom, saving metadata to XMS.  It has 4 top level non-exporting keywords (none with square brackets!), each with a sub-, sub-sub- and sub-sub-sub level, every level below the top having also a synonym.  I exported the keywords from Lightroom and imported them into a new IMatch catalogue's Thesaurus, making sure the top levels were recognised as Group Level (so that they were identical to the Lightroom set-up). 

Having set the keywords in Lightroom then imported the 6 images into IMatch, their keywords in the Keyword Panel show the full paths up to and including the Group Level keywords, even though they are recognised in the Thesaurus hierarchy.  They do not show just the single keywords and synonyms.

4 of the images had only one the bottom leaf keyword selected, which was correctly recognised by IMatch (so far as concerns the ticks in the Hierarchical Thesaurus Keyword grid), the fifth had all 4 bottom leaf keywords selected and the sixth had every keyword selected in Lightroom.

I then did a Batch Processor export to JPG, with both XMP Leaf and XMP Hierarchical export checked.  Every file thus exported contained (i) the selected keywords, (ii) the Group Level keywords, but (iii) none of the synonyms from any level.  Even selecting the XMP All Data option did not export any of the synonyms (by contrast, Lightroom was able to export the synonyms as individual flat keywords).

Surprisingly, changing these imported keywords in IMatch does not work: nothing happens if you try to change them in the Hierarchical Keyword grid.  If, however, you add new keywords to the Thesaurus in IMatch and synonyms, these show up as you demonstrated in your reply, without the new Group Level keyword displaying. In this case (new keywords added from within IMatch), the synonyms of the ultimate leaf keyword do export (although still not the synonyms of higher branches unless each branch is separately explicitly selected).

I hope this explanation helps.  There does seem to be a difference on behaviour according to whether the keywords in the XMP metadata have originated outside or from within IMatch: I would have expected that, so long as the XMP metadata has been properly updated, it should be read and displayed in the same way regardless of its origins, and keywords (and synonyms) should export identically in the Batch Processor.

I would also have thought that if latest XMP options in the Batch Processor include being able to select all levels of keyword, they should include (or have an option to include) synonyms at all levels which are being exported, whether or not the individual leaves/branches are ticked in the Hierarchical Keyword display.

Graham

[Mario]

My group level format is [001_ACTIVITY & CONCEPTS_] (which explains the square brackets in my screenshots).  Other group levels are all similarly [002_XXX_], and so on.

Then there is something wrong since IMatch never adds group level keywords to the keywords for your files. Try it. I guess these were added by Lightroom. IMatch will not remove or change keywords already in your files them just because your thesaurus says these are group-level keywords. Group levels are only respected when IMatch adds keywords. Not when they are added by other applications. This probably explains your misunderstanding.

You can see this if you add a keyword containing groups levels in the Keywords Panel. The group level keywords are not added.

I assumed that (so long as XMP sidecars are updated in each programme as you go along), Lightroom and IMatch should each recognise keyword metadata created or altered by the other interchangeably - that is what the Help file indicates. 

I use Lightroom and IMatch together almost every day. You just gave to write back XMP data in each application, and then the other application will see it. IMatch re-imports metadata automatically, in Lr you'll have to trigger the re-import automatically. IMatch has metadata protection features, Lr has not.