"Connection" between iMatch and On1 Photo Raw

[rienvanham]

Good morning Mario,

I would like to give your opinion to my "puzzle" in the "connection" between iMatch and On1 Photo Raw 2024:

I'm using iMatch as thé application for maintaining all my metadata in the photo's. I'm using On1 for doing the photo-part.
In On1 "strange" keywords appear at most photo's: e.g. "Flora|Boom|Olijf" (iMatch) appear as "Flora < Boom < Olijf" (correct) and "FloraBoomOlijf"(concat - incorrect).
I tried to find out what happens and (I think) I found the issue: the tag "XMP-dc\Subject" is filled with hierarchical keyword(s).

If I delete the keywords from iMatch, do a save (pencil gone) and add the keywords again, do a save, then the keywords in "XMP-dc\Subject" are written as flat keywords and On1 doesn't show concatted keywords.

So, I don't think that iMatch caused this issue (perhaps Lightroom?).

Do you have any idea how to solve this with iMatch? thus, to change the hierarchical keywords in this tag to flat keywords?

Many thanks on forehand,
Rien.

[Mario]

Have a look at Write hierarchical keywords in the Metadata Configuration help topic.

There is no "standard" of how to map hierarchical keywords like location|beach|Daytona into flat keywords. Some applications don't bother at all. Some applications write only the leaf ("Daytona"), some applications write each segment in the hierarchical keyword: "location", "beach", "Daytona". Some to even stranger things.

IMatch supports all possible schemes, in order to allow for maximum flexibility and interoperability.

Note: Metadata keywords in the field of tension between multiple applications with more or less evolved metadata management capabilities are always a source of problems or surprises.

Tip: You can see the actual keywords in your images (legacy IPTC, XMP subject, XMP::lr:hierarchicalSubject) in the ExifTool Command Processor with the All Keywords preset.

[rienvanham]

Hi Mario,

Thanks for your answer! If I use the ExifTool Command Processor I indeed see the difference between 2 photo's. I think On1 can't "live" with hierarchical keywords in XMP Subject. I contacted then and asked what's happening there.

[Mario]

In that case, let IMatch write only the leaf keyword or each segment of the hierarchical keyword individually.
There are no rules for XMP keywords. "beach" is as good as "location|beach" or "location>beach" or whatever. It all depends on how the application reading the keywords handles them.

Note: If you make non-hierarchical flat keywords, make sure your thesaurus is up-to-date in IMatch.
Else IMatch won't be able to map the flat keyword "beach" into Location|beach on import.

[rienvanham]

Hi Mario, I found another "solution" (don't know if that's preferable):

If I clean the Subject tag:

D:\exiftoolgui\exiftool -P -overwrite_original -subject="" "E:\Bestanden\Originele Foto's\2024\Vakantie Duitsland\*.jpeg"

then it works for On1.

- Is this "dangerous"?
- Is this doable from within iMatch, did a try with:
# im-warn
-overwrite_original_in_place
-dc=""
-charset
filename=UTF8
{Files}

but I get the response:
Warning: Sorry, dc is not writable

[Mario]

IMatch will re-populate the tag the next time it writes back.
Keeping flat keywords, hierarchical keywords and, if existing, legacy IPTC keywords in-sync is kinda important.

-dc="" is invalid syntax. This is why ExifTool complains.
You used -subject= on the command line, you can use the same in the ECP. -subject= not -subject="".
The first deletes the tag, the second fills the tag with an empty string.

See https://exiftool.org/exiftool_pod.html for the correct syntax and many examples.

[rienvanham]

That did the trick! 1000 times thanks Mario!

[RobiWan]

rienvanham I'm not sure if I understand you problem correct, but - yes I'm using ON1 PR too and have no issues with keywords (flat and hierarchical) at all. 

[rienvanham]

Hi Robiwan, I do have this problem in almost 18.000(!) photo's and I think I found the software that creates rusbish in the tag Subject: "Photo Mechanic 6 Pro".

e.g. iMatch writes flat keywords into Subject:
"2022; Kerstster; Plant; Flora; Huiskamer; Woning; Gebouwen; Noord-Brabant; Nederland"
(rmoved some keywords for privacy)

I add a hierarchical keyword with Photo Mechanic:
Apparaten|iPhone

then Subject is changed by Photo Mechanic into:

"Flora*Plant*Kerstster*Gebouwen*Woning*Huiskamer*Nederland*Noord-Brabant*2022*Flora|Plant|Kerstster*Gebouwen|Woning|Huiskamer*Nederland|Noord-Brabant*Jaar|2022*Apparaten|iPhone"

and this doesn't like On1.

I know.... I have to get rid of Photo Mechanic... but I like the query-language they use (Mario, perhaps something for iMatch 2025?)

[Mario]

I know.... I have to get rid of Photo Mechanic... but I like the query-language they use (Mario, perhaps something for iMatch 2025?)

I'm aware of the query language in PM. Not sure how much demand would be for that in IMatch, though.
Maybe add a feature request with a link to the PM docs for the query language? And some examples of the queries you usually perform? 

Other users can join in and I'll see how much demand there is. As always, I'm open to enhancements that are helpful for a sufficiently large number of users. Or even a smaller number of users and one Mario

The Search Bar in the File Window can do a lot, and with the QuickFilter and Filter Panel even more so.

I have a several data-driven categories which avoid a lot of searching and filtering.
Like, I've often used "byline Mario" in PM or "keywords none", when I recall correctly.

IMatch has categories I only need to click. Or Ctrl+click multiple categories to combine them.
I also have a number of stored filters I can apply at any time via a favorite (Automation > Action favorite).

In my experience, most people use only rather "simple" searches.

[RobiWan]

I add a hierarchical keyword with Photo Mechanic:
Apparaten|iPhone

I don't know about PM, but maybe an idea

1. Are you sure PM can work with hierarchical-keywords?
2. Maybe you don't write the hierarchy as PM expects?
3. Are you sure your PM is right configured?

I ask because PM is very common and i can't imagine that such a serious error would not be fixed immediately.

[rienvanham]

Hi Mario,

I'm sure that iMatch can solve the same queries as PM can do. I only find their syntax so easy. I will initiate a FR in the upcoming days. 

@Robiwan:
1. I should say: off course! (CTRL-SHIFT-K)
2. There's not much to configure in PM for exporting keywords
3. See 2

I recently reported an error to them (a hierarchical keyword with no childs is not written in the hierarchical tag) (what iMatch does!) but they will not repair this because they find this is not a hierarchical keyword (although it's present in the hierarchical list). By the way: I totally do not understand why they use a keyword list and a hierarchical keyword list.