Photo Mechanic

[Stenis]

In that PM template I have a number of so called "Snapshot" like we also have in iMatch but in PM I have an overview of all these elements with texts variable and also possible to decide is I shall overwrite, append or delete individual element. Since I have this overview it is less likely to make fatal update errors than if all but one of the elements values are exposed at the time.

Or is there features I have missed?

[Mario]

I have split this topic from the "AutoTagger Prompt Engineering" thread, because it is not really related.

I now see what you mean with "form" vs. Metadata Template.
From telemetry I can see that the average number of items in Metadata Templates is 3. So, I guess most users will have no issues with that.

If I would have so many tags to fill, I would not use a Metadata Template, but AutoFill Templates.

[Tveloso]

...and the IMatch feature that I think would be analogous to what I imagine you describe as forms in PM, is Custom Metadata Panel Layouts.  In combination with AutoFill Templates, you should be able to do everything you do in PM (but of course, with IMatch's superior Metadata handling).

[Stenis]

Yes, Tweloso exactly.

That is precisely what I have found out too after some testing.
I have added the metadata elements in the Default Layout that I lacked.

Thanks for your input!

[Stenis]

There is just another small but important thing I havn´t been able to figure out:

I have had a problem with "Description" when updating from PM in batch and after PM-data has ben imported to iMatch.
Of some resons all Descriptions has vanished in many of my folders but just om my ARW-RAW-files.
So what I´m doing now is replacing them with Autotags. and that is OK mostly.

But sometimes I still want to copy the data from the JPEG-files to the missing RAW-descriptions.
Doing that in PM is very fast and easy but in iMatch I have found tvwo ways so far.

1. Select the JPEG and click on the clipboard symbol in the Default Layout (Metadata-panel) click Copy and then select the corresponding RAW and click the "paste" symbol beside the Clipboad-symbol and click Paste.
This is very inefficient.

2. If I want to use Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V I also have to click the metadata-form by the mouse.

In PM I can do it all with the keyboard and that is much faster.
I start just with selecting the first image and the press Ctrl+C then press Ctrl+N (new for next image) or Ctrl+B (to back instead) and the press Ctrl+V.
In short I would like to be able not to use the mouse at all when copying and pasting data between images.

When I tried press Ctrl+C iMatch created a copy of the whole file.

[Mario]

I have had a problem with "Description" when updating from PM in batch and after PM-data has ben imported to iMatch.

You write descriptions in PM and they don't show in IMatch? That would be very unusual. Unless PM does something non-standard, like e.g. writing only the legacy IPTC description and not both.

but just om my ARW-RAW-files.

Ah. RAW files have metadata embedded in the image and an XMP sidecar file.
Did PM update everything correctly as needed per XMP standard? Did you check?

Easy to see in IMatch's ExifTool Command Processor and to check with Metadata Analyst.

"Did not work" is usually not a good description for a problem.
IMatch gives you the tools to find out what PM did wrong (or, rarely, IMatch). Use these tools.
Don't guess or try to find clumsy work-arounds.

When PM loses metadata, find out why, and fix it. No need for work-arounds like manually copying metadata around. This is never needed in IMatch.

You can upload the ARW and corrresponding XMP file to your cloud space and post a link. I will look at the files and tell you what the problem is.

Also, remember metadata protection under Edit > Preferences > Metadata 2. By default, IMatch protects metadata modified in your database (for example, an updated description) from modifications done by other software when it has to re-import the file. Maybe this was the case?

When I tried press Ctrl+C iMatch created a copy of the whole file. 

We have discussed this already.

Ctrl+C works differently, depending on which panel or window is active in IMatch.
When you use Ctrl+C in the Media & Folders tree, you copy folders.
When you use use Ctrl+C while the File Window is active, you copy all selected files. This is what you did in this case.
When you use use Ctrl+C while the Metadata Panel is active, you copy metadata.

If you find everything in IMatch so inefficient, why don't you stay with PM? Not every software works for everybody.
IMatch is a very streamlined application and designed to process a studio day's worth of images (thousands) in minimal time.

Let me know when you have uploaded the ARW and XMP with the lost description. Or send them, with a link to this topic, to support email address.

[Stenis]

When I tried press Ctrl+C iMatch created a copy of the whole file.

We have discussed this already.

Ctrl+C works differently, depending on which panel or window is active in IMatch.
When you use Ctrl+C in the Media & Folders tree, you copy folders.
When you use use Ctrl+C while the File Window is active, you copy all selected files. This is what you did in this case.
When you use use Ctrl+C while the Metadata Panel is active, you copy metadata.

If you find everything in IMatch so inefficient, why don't you stay with PM? Not every software works for everybody.
IMatch is a very streamlined application and designed to process a studio day's worth of images (thousands) in minimal time.

Mario I´m pretty new to iMatch and like a lot of it a lot but run in to a few things that I don´t know is because of lacking knowledge or so and the use of copying and pasting is one of them.

I was asking you about a way to just do it with the keyboard and I think I found a way to avoid the problem with having to rely on mouse driven copy and paste of metadata.

From what I can see the trick that seems to solve i it to use Ctrl+Shift+V.
This calls up a meny called "Paste Attributes and Data".
There I can check the type of data that will be written and I have checked Description and Keywords in this case.

So I press Ctrl+C at the JPEG that still holds the Description moves to the next with -> and then press Ctrl+Shift+V the Paste Attributes and Data pops up and I just press Enter. Exactly what I wanted

Case is closed.

I also read about what is going on when updating.
I lifted that before and you said AutoTagger does not have a certain processing built in that rund in the background but there are other processes that have haven´t they :-)

This was what I found in the Help-texts.
I will study that care ful and test a few things in order to fix that "Description"-vanishing problems with my RAW-files. I feel it is dangerous when the Description data on the RAW just can get lost if I happen to do things in my workflows that I´m not even aware of is a problem. Of course the problem might be on the PM-side but PM has been set to always write XMP and IPTC just to prevent things like this to happen.

Metadata Propagation between IPTC, EXIF and XMP
At the time the data is written to the file on disk, IMatch also performs tasks like migrating data between different metadata formats (e.g. copying changes from XMP to IPTC) according to the settings you have made under Edit > Preferences > Metadata 2.

No propagation between tags in different standards takes place until the data is written to the file on disk.

This means that when you change the value for an XMP tag, the corresponding IPTC or EXIF tag will not show the new value unless the data was written to the file. Only after the data has been written and migration is complete does the metadata panel show the correct data for all tags. The only exception is keywords. IMatch automatically updates the keyword tags in the metadata panel for all standards when you work with the Keyword Panel.

This is not a problem if you use only Standard tags in your custom layouts and you don't mix classic IPTC/EXIF data with XMP. You should just be aware of the fact that IPTC/EXIF data is considered stale if there are unwritten changes to XMP data and you have enabled propagation/migration between XMP and IPTC/EXIF.


So, so far so good Mario

Very few things left now to handle

[Mario]

Paste Attributes and what you do in the Metadata Panel overlap, but don't replace each other. Make sure you read about Copy & Paste Attributes to understand if it is applicable to your use case.

For the majority of users, using Cop y& Paste in the Metadata Panel is perfect and offers a lot of control that Copy & Paste Attributes (the predecessor feature) has not.

I lifted that before and you said AutoTagger does not have a certain processing built in that rund in the background but there are other processes that have haven´t they :-)

I don't understand. AutoTagger enables you to add descriptions and keywords to XMP tags or AI tags. It allows you to process the keywords provided by the AI as explained in detail in the AutoTagger help.

Of course the problem might be on the PM-side but PM has been set to always write XMP and IPTC just to prevent things like this to happen.

Can't comment on this until you provide sample images and we see what you and PM actually do to the description.
PM is a very special case, not widely used outside of certain areas of business.

Most IMatch users, myself included, work with software like Photoshop, Lightroom, C1, DxO, Blender, Affinity software etc. And all play well with IMatch - if you consider their limitations. Adobe software is usually gold, because of their pro user base. Other software may cause or more or less metadata problems. Doing all metadata work in IMatch is usually the guarantee for the richest and most compatible metadata.

What is the meaning of the large block of bold text? You know that you can simple place a link to the help topic instead of copying it? Behind each headline in the help you'll see a small icon that copies the link. And with Ctrl+click it copies a link designed for this community.

It is generally recommend to work with XMP. At least for the past 20 years. IMatch then keeps care on write-back to sync with legacy IPTC, EXIF, GPS, ID3, PDF and other standards. Don't edit native tags, including IIM IPTC, directly unless you know what you are doing. And which options in IMatch to configure and how. This is all stuff from the past.

[Stenis]

Paste Attributes and what you do in the Metadata Panel overlap, but don't replace each other. Make sure you read about Copy & Paste Attributes to understand if it is applicable to your use case.

For the majority of users, using Cop y& Paste in the Metadata Panel is perfect and offers a lot of control that Copy & Paste Attributes (the predecessor feature) has not.

I lifted that before and you said AutoTagger does not have a certain processing built in that rund in the background but there are other processes that have haven´t they :-)

I don't understand. AutoTagger enables you to add descriptions and keywords to XMP tags or AI tags. It allows you to process the keywords provided by the AI as explained in detail in the AutoTagger help.

Of course the problem might be on the PM-side but PM has been set to always write XMP and IPTC just to prevent things like this to happen.

Can't comment on this until you provide sample images and we see what you and PM actually do to the description.
PM is a very special case, not widely used outside of certain areas of business.

Most IMatch users, myself included, work with software like Photoshop, Lightroom, C1, DxO, Blender, Affinity software etc. And all play well with IMatch - if you consider their limitations. Adobe software is usually gold, because of their pro user base. Other software may cause or more or less metadata problems. Doing all metadata work in IMatch is usually the guarantee for the richest and most compatible metadata.

What is the meaning of the large block of bold text? You know that you can simple place a link to the help topic instead of copying it? Behind each headline in the help you'll see a small icon that copies the link. And with Ctrl+click it copies a link designed for this community.

It is generally recommend to work with XMP. At least for the past 20 years. IMatch then keeps care on write-back to sync with legacy IPTC, EXIF, GPS, ID3, PDF and other standards. Don't edit native tags, including IIM IPTC, directly unless you know what you are doing. And which options in IMatch to configure and how. This is all stuff from the past.

I have no problem at all using the AutoTagger. The problem has been when updating data through PhotoMechanic because then the RAW-files ends up with empty Descriptions. Well I don´t care really to drill more there because since I will migrate and really already have in practise I will just update via iMatch now and that works fine.

I know the differenses between how the copy using "Paste Attributes and Data and the Layout-forms and Auto-fill works! I only use Paste Attribute and Data when I am working with both RAW + JPEG-derivates at the same time and when the RAW and the JPEG has exactly the same motifs and are sharing exactly the same metadata. This is a method for me to repair the damage the PhotoMechanic updates have caused when I want to keep my old metada and don´t create new metadata with AutoTagger.

I´m sure Copy and Paste is OK for a lot of people that needs more control but just like when I work in PhotoMechanic with RAW+JPEG pairs I don´t need any control since I always copy all metadata on these records. Clicking around with the mouse is just too inefficient for me. I don´t consider me having that time anymore.

The large block of metadata is taken straight out of the manual for iMatch and it explains I think why the proglem with the lost Descriptions have occured.

Both have their place.

[Stenis]

t is generally recommend to work with XMP. At least for the past 20 years. IMatch then keeps care on write-back to sync with legacy IPTC, EXIF, GPS, ID3, PDF and other standards. Don't edit native tags, including IIM IPTC, directly unless you know what you are doing. And which options in IMatch to configure and how. This is all stuff from the past.

I know what I´m doing and in some respects PhotoMechanic is "stuff from the past" because the internal metadata interface is mostly IPTC. That IPTC is converted to XMP at "export" and that seems to be the case for both DXO Photolab and Capture One too. These softwares don´t give you any interfaces to handle XMP directly. They still offer just IPTC but converts it to XMP at export and so the metadata world still looks 2025.

I have added a few elements to the Default metadata layout and I think it is common to use that expression instead of data field when talking XML and XMP. As an old database guy I see fields is a database concept. You are using the concept of Layout and Templates but your "templates" are not really the same as it means in PM Plus. In PM it is more like a form and you also are talking about Metadata Panel and when working with it and designing it you use the word Layout.

[Mario]

IIM3 IPTC ("legacy IPTC") was replaced by the IPTC by the two XMP namespaces IPTC and IPTCExt, about a decade (?) ago.
If PM internally uses legacy IPTC, it has still all the length limits, character set issues and stuff we've got rid of with XMP 20 years ago.

Not sure about your template comment. Template is not a reserved term. IMatch uses it for Metadata Templates, because that's what they are - a way to:

+ set or reset collections
+ fill metadata tags
+ delete metadata tags
+ modify metadata tags
+ conditionally fill metadata tags
+ copy data between metadata tags
+ append to metadata tags

These templates are a time-saver and, sometimes, problem solver. And they can be run automatically while new files are ingested, avoiding to have manually input stationary data like artist info, rights, legal etc.

For users who work with large sets of pre-filled data (like, Artwork or Object, Location, tag sets in Darwin Core, ...) AutoFill is the way to go.

IMatch does not do "forms" like PM does (or the old Photoshop dialog for metadata input unchanged since Photoshop 6).
In IMatch you input Metadata in the Metadata Panel. You can chose from the pre-defined layouts shipped with IMatch, or create your own custom layout, containing the tags you need to see and modify.

The Metadata Panel offers a plethora of additional features, from keeping histories of your input, direct thesaurus integration, AutoFill integration, spell checking, color highlighting items based on content, easy multi-row input for longer text (descriptions), support for XMP structured tags like IPTC Location or Artwork or Objects, Metadata Template access, etc.

I don't know if you have tried all these features yet. All of this is designed to make metadata input quick, consistent and as effortless as possible. The Metadata Panel help topic shows and explains all of these features.