Confused by stacks

[afx]

Hi,

looks like I have trouble understanding stacks and versions.
I have the NEF versions enabled in the preferences and set it up to look one folder deep.

My master folder has NEFs plus one derived TIFF.
Various JPGs sit in subdirectories with derived names.

The versioning automatically generates a stack.
But why Is that stack of images not expanded in the Stacks view?
Stacks of JPGs that share one directory are expanded there.
And why is the derived TIFF in the same directory used as a display proxy but not folded into the stack?

What am I missing?

cheers
afx

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[Mario]

The selected image in your screen shot is not part of a stack (version or normal stack).
You can tell because it does not show a stack icon under the thumbnail.
Click one of the files which are part of a stack (e.g. the ...-24.nef) and the Stack  / Version panel will show the files.

[afx]

Ahh, did not see that panel, thx!
(Had the wrong screnshot uploaded, meant to have 24 selected.)

Still, why is the 24-Edit which is shown after the 24 version stack used as the image for the version stack but not folded in (CTRL-SHIFT-S changes nothing)?
So far I can't seem to find a way to make a specific image the one to be displayed (CTRL-UP / SHIFT-T) and I see no way to actually identify the filename of the version that is displayed on top.

After creating some more derivatives, suddenly iMatch chooses one of them as the top, but I still have no clue how to do this explicitly or how to identify the exact file that is currently on top

thx
afx

[Mario]

A version stack always combines the master file and all versions. The top of the stack is always the master. This is automatic, and can be used in addition to normal stacks.

All I can tell from your screen shot is that the -24.nef file is a master and that the -Edit file is a version. When you select the master and choose Toggle Version stack, the -Edit file should be removed from the file window and stacked under the -24 file. The View > Panels > Version panel will show both files.

If this does not happen, I would need more info about what you see when you click on the -24 file, your relation rule etc.
I've made a quick checks in my sample database and .NEF versioning, Version panel and version stacking work as designed. At least here.

[afx]

A version stack always combines the master file and all versions. The top of the stack is always the master. This is automatic, and can be used in addition to normal stacks.

But I do not see the NEF as the top but a display proxy.
(the NEFs are easily identified in that series by being way too cold, only derived files have color adjustments)

All I can tell from your screen shot is that the -24.nef file is a master and that the -Edit file is a version.

But why is the Edit displayed as the image for the master and not the NEF?
I have not defined any display proxies.

When you select the master and choose Toggle Version stack, the -Edit file should be removed from the file window and stacked under the -24 file. The View > Panels > Version panel will show both files.

Nothing changes when I use "Toggle Version Stack". I only see the rotating busy ring for a moment.

If this does not happen, I would need more info about what you see when you click on the -24 file, your relation rule etc.

See Screenshots for the rules, they are basically default.
I only changed the NEF Versioning into My Versions to add the ORF files.

I seem to remember that versions are used for display in the order last one wins, so that would explain the _edit.tif being shown, but not that adding a JPG somewhere in the tree switches then to that JPG.

And that still leaves the open question, why can I not explicitly select the image shown on top of a version stack and why is there no command to explicitly tell me which file is used for display.

cheers
afx

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[Mario]

So what you say is:

- IMatch does not identify your NEF files and version?
- The top of the version stack is not the master file?
- Or the top of the version stack is the master, but another image is displayed instead?
- The Toggle Version stack does nothing?
- Do you use the version as the proxy? In this case the master will look like the version, also when the stack is stacked.

I use NEF version stacks all day in IMatch 5 because I shoot NEF and use JPEG proxies. I know this works great usually.

This is very hard to understand and judge from your screen shot.
Please show me a screen shot when image -24 (the master) is selected. Make sure the version panel is open so I can see which files are versions of that master.
The -Edit should be the only version (as far as I can tell from your screen shot).
Selecting the master and then choosing Toggle Version stack should hide the Edit version from the file window.
Make a few extra screen shots so I can see what you are seeing and also attach a log file from that session so we can check for warnings or errors.
I would also need to see the "Versioning" tab from your "My Version" in the Relation Configuration.

[afx]

- IMatch does not identify your NEF files and version?

No, I can find the NEF and the versions, but not which file is actually displayed.

- The top of the version stack is not the master file?

No

- Or the top of the version stack is the master, but another image is displayed instead?

Yes, which I think is correct if I read the preferences right.

- The Toggle Version stack does nothing?

Yes, nothing.

- Do you use the version as the proxy? In this case the master will look like the version, also when the stack is stacked.

Yes, but which version is the proxy? I am looking for a way to identify it and set it explicitly.

I use NEF version stacks all day in IMatch 5 because I shoot NEF and use JPEG proxies. I know this works great usually.

Works like a charm in another directory. There I have two JPG subdirectories that show identical images, just in different sizes. But I have no clue which of the sizes is used for the proxy....

Please show me a screen shot when image -24 (the master) is selected. Make sure the version panel is open so I can see which files are versions of that master.

Attached.

The -Edit should be the only version (as far as I can tell from your screen shot).

The counter on -24 is higher than that. Plenty of versions in subdirectories.

But funnily enough, -j16-2.jpg is not included, why?

Selecting the master and then choosing Toggle Version stack should hide the Edit version from the file window.

It changes nothing on screen.

Make a few extra screen shots so I can see what you are seeing and also attach a log file from that session so we can check for warnings or errors.

I'll attach the log, but which other screenshots would be helpful?

I would also need to see the "Versioning" tab from your "My Version" in the Relation Configuration.

Attached.

cheers
afx

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Mario]

Looks all pretty normal. The master even shows that it has 8 files in the stack.

Works like a charm in another directory. There I have two JPG subdirectories that show identical images, just in different sizes. But I have no clue which of the sizes is used for the proxy....

Ah.ha. Looks like your relation rule is not properly handling your folder structure. If it works in one folder, but not in another, check which folders you search for versions.

IMatch chooses whatever proxy image it finds first. If you setup only one rule for both the versioning and the proxy, and your master has 10 versions, it's hard to tell which proxy is chosen.

We discussed this here several times and it's also in the help: If you plan to use a visual proxy and you need detailed control, add an extra rule which determines the proxy. In your case, add a second rule for .NEF masters which determines the proxy version deterministically. Then remove the "visual proxy" option in your main version rule and set it only for the second rule.

If your naming schema / metadata does not allow you to setup a rule which automatically determines the proxy image, setup a "manual only" rule, with the "visual proxy" option set. You can then use this to manually make a file a version of your master, and use that rule to tell IMatch which options to apply to that manual rule. This allows you to manually set the proxy version.

Of course it's always easier to let IMatch automatically determine the proxy, e.g. by exporting the proxy into a specific sub-folder from whatever RAW processor you use, or to give the proxy a unique tag in the file name which can easily be matches in a relation rule -

Like

_DSC01202.NEF
_DSC01202.DNG
_DSC01202.JPG
_DSC01202_proxy.JPG

where the first three files are master and versions, and the fourth file is matched via a second .NEF rule which is only used to find the proxy.

[afx]

Looks all pretty normal. The master even shows that it has 8 files in the stack.

The counter has always been shown with the appropriate number, that's how I knew iMatch was picking up the files in the subfolders.

Works like a charm in another directory. There I have two JPG subdirectories that show identical images, just in different sizes. But I have no clue which of the sizes is used for the proxy....

Ah.ha. Looks like your relation rule is not properly handling your folder structure. If it works in one folder, but not in another, check which folders you search for versions.[/quote]

I think you have the wrong conclusion here.

The subfolders are one level deep in each case, so that is not an issue.

Why does the Toggle Version Stack not work to fold in -Edit?

Just for kicks I did a refresh relations.
Now the folding in of the -Edit file works as expected when I toggle the version stack.
And the -Edit TIF is back as the proxy ;-(

So it looks like there is an issue where iMatch gets into a state where the Version Stack Toggle no longer works which gets cleared up by refreshing the relationships.

IMatch chooses whatever proxy image it finds first. If you setup only one rule for both the versioning and the proxy, and your master has 10 versions, it's hard to tell which proxy is chosen.

It seems iMatch uses some random order, please please state that explicitly in the docs.

I usually do not have such a clutter, but it looks like every time I try to test some feature I run into the appropriate hard case ;-)

We discussed this here several times and it's also in the help: If you plan to use a visual proxy and you need detailed control, add an extra rule which determines the proxy. In your case, add a second rule for .NEF masters which determines the proxy version deterministically. Then remove the "visual proxy" option in your main version rule and set it only for the second rule.

Sorry, but from the description of the rule based proxy search, it is not clear that iMatch selects randomly from multiple matches.
And that's why I have been looking for some function to tell me exactly which one was picked.

If your naming schema / metadata does not allow you to setup a rule which automatically determines the proxy image, setup a "manual only" rule, with the "visual proxy" option set. You can then use this to manually make a file a version of your master, and use that rule to tell IMatch which options to apply to that manual rule. This allows you to manually set the proxy version.

Will probably use that for the trouble cases ;-)

Of course it's always easier to let IMatch automatically determine the proxy, e.g. by exporting the proxy into a specific sub-folder from whatever RAW processor you use, or to give the proxy a unique tag in the file name which can easily be matches in a relation rule -

Most of the time the default rules will work just fine ;-)

I've been rereading the docs of the version preferences, I only see a hierarchy of the Relation Definitions.
What about the order of the extensions in the Link Expression Regex?

cheers
afx

[Mario]

It seems iMatch uses some random order, please please state that explicitly in the docs.

So your relations were not up-to-date. I should have asked that in my initial reply.
If you change relation rules, IMatch prompts you to refresh relations to apply the new rules. If this is not done, all kinds of things can happen.

If you setup file relations where multiple files are linked to a master and you make this rule a visual proxy, you have no control over which of the version is chosen. How should IMatch determine the "best" proxy? By file extension? By file name?
From the top of my head I think if multiple versions are potential visual proxies for a master, IMatch sorts the proxies alphabetically by file name to produce a deterministic order.

As I wrote above, if you work with visual proxies and multiple versions can be candidates, it's always better to setup a separate relation rule which determines exactly one visual proxy.

[afx]

So your relations were not up-to-date. I should have asked that in my initial reply.
If you change relation rules, IMatch prompts you to refresh relations to apply the new rules. If this is not done, all kinds of things can happen.

I thought they where up to date...

Ok, that explains the handling of the -Edit file.

If you setup file relations where multiple files are linked to a master and you make this rule a visual proxy, you have no control over which of the version is chosen. How should IMatch determine the "best" proxy? By file extension? By file name?
From the top of my head I think if multiple versions are potential visual proxies for a master, IMatch sorts the proxies alphabetically by file name to produce a deterministic order.

Whatever it is, please document it explicitly.

Saves a lot of guesswork and forum traffic ;-)

cheers
afx

[sinus]

We discussed this here several times and it's also in the help: If you plan to use a visual proxy and you need detailed control, add an extra rule which determines the proxy. In your case, add a second rule for .NEF masters which determines the proxy version deterministically. Then remove the "visual proxy" option in your main version rule and set it only for the second rule.

Sorry, but from the description of the rule based proxy search, it is not clear that iMatch selects randomly from multiple matches.
And that's why I have been looking for some function to tell me exactly which one was picked.
cheers
afx

From the actual help-file:

Order of Versions
If there are multiple version files for the same verb, IMatch sorts the versions by file name and uses the first file for the verb. For example, you setup a relation definition to link a RAW file to JPEG files. You configure the JPEG files as a visual proxy. If the relation yields multiple JPEG files for the same master (because you have created multiple variants), IMatch uses the first JPEG after sorting all versions by file name.[/i]

Relations inclusive Proxies are not easy to understand, but (almost) all is in the help-file.

[afx]

From the actual help-file:

Order of Versions
If there are multiple version files for the same verb, IMatch sorts the versions by file name and uses the first file for the verb. For example, you setup a relation definition to link a RAW file to JPEG files. You configure the JPEG files as a visual proxy. If the relation yields multiple JPEG files for the same master (because you have created multiple variants), IMatch uses the first JPEG after sorting all versions by file name.[/i]

Relations inclusive Proxies are not easy to understand, but (almost) all is in the help-file.

Where?
Not in the help for the version setup where one would expect it...
(what I get when pressing help on the File relations setup screen when the version tab is selected)


And, that text does not match reality.
If only the alphabetical oder of the files names would be used, then I would see a JPG from a subdirectory first before the TIFF that sits in the same directory.
But it looks like the directory or file type also plays a role.

cheers
afx

[sinus]

From the actual help-file:

Order of Versions
If there are multiple version files for the same verb, IMatch sorts the versions by file name and uses the first file for the verb. For example, you setup a relation definition to link a RAW file to JPEG files. You configure the JPEG files as a visual proxy. If the relation yields multiple JPEG files for the same master (because you have created multiple variants), IMatch uses the first JPEG after sorting all versions by file name.[/i]

Relations inclusive Proxies are not easy to understand, but (almost) all is in the help-file.

Where?
cheers
afx

In the help-file of IMatch. Cannot look, I am not at the main-computer.

[afx]

In the help-file of IMatch. Cannot look, I am not at the main-computer.

Oh, I've found it.
The "Where?" was more a rhetorical question.
If the help is not where the stuff is set up or at least appropriately referenced form there, then it is misplaced. Which then leads to silly questions in the Forum ;-)

cheers
afx

[Mario]

This information is from the main file relations topic (File Relations: Versioning).
I have added a more prominent link to the main topic from the topic which explains the File Relation dialog box.

[afx]

I have added a more prominent link to the main topic from the topic which explains the File Relation dialog box.

Great, that should help the next guy

cheers
afx

[Mario]

The table of contents, the index and the search functions available the help system are also very helpful.



All topics related to file relations are close together.

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[Richard]

I have added a more prominent link to the main topic from the topic which explains the File Relation dialog box.

Great, that should help the next guy

cheers
afx

If anyone finds something confusing or lacking in Help, the best way to improve the help files is by using the link at the bottom of each file to email your comments to Mario. IMO, the help files are also being Beta tested but users need to report bugs there as well.