FIRST WEEK: What do you think?

[Mario]

A week ago I've released the initial Beta version of IMatch 5.
Although I did not make a lot of 'noise', about 500 users have downloaded the beta already. We have now nearly 300 users in this new community. My plan is to fix the most obvious crashes and bugs first, with new Beta version releases about every week or two.

When things settle a bit and you all have used IMatch for maybe a month, I will send out an email to all users with a valid license. This should bring in another wave of new users. Since you all have gathered some experience then, most questions of the new users should have been already answered in the community, or one of you can jump in and help the new user. This will free some of my time I can then use to fix bugs and make changes, maybe adding a new feature here and there.

When we all agree that IMatch 5 is good for production, I will release the new version officially. The timing depends on how good this Beta test runs, and how fast I can find and fix bugs of course 

Some of you have already posted their initial impressions. But after a week with IMatch 5 Beta, what do you think about it? Please post your comments in response to this post. I'm curious 

[Kucera]

 

what do you think about it?

That it is all and more of what the helpfile promised - and that it will take me forever to learn enough to use the potential for all that I like (and I am not overly demanding of it, either!). Congrats and thanks, Mario, for the quick and caring responses. I just hope I can keep up with the new releases to be of some use as a beta tester :-)

[falconeye]

I have to admit I didn't really expect that IMatch5 would be released before 2015. But now I am really impressed.
A wonderful piece of software and I can not imagine that one person alone is able to do the whole programming plus 
the really good support for Imatch 3.xx. Normally this should be a fulltime job for 10+ people.
I am playing around with IMatch 5 as much as possible and the more 'goodies' I discover the more it gets clear to me how much "Hirnschmalz" Mario
really has invested.
I run IMatch 5 and IMatch 3.6 on an 10 year old Laptop with Win XP (normally I work with Apple) and it is faster then I expected.
Four or five times it crashed but perhaps this has something to do with my old Hardware. I could not find one single bug so far.
Now I am really thinking about buying an new PC solely for IMatch 5.
So please Mario keep up your extraordinary work and I hope for an offical version as soon as possible.

Greetings
Ralf

[ianrr]

Awesome !!    ... the layout is excellent and the thought you have put into the permutations & ways of using the program are going to
take me time and much thought how to use the new features to suite my needs. The possibilities are wonderful indeed !!!

[ChrisMatch]

This is such an impressive piece of software!

I have many years of experience in 'organizing informations' and have a good feeling how I want to organize my images in the future. But I have not yet used a 'real DAM solution' for my images (I never really used iMatch 3 because playing around with the beta of v5 is much more fun  ).

Every thing I would like iMatch to do is not only possible - but it is possible in many different ways - and supported with little useful things/features I wouldn't have thought of. It's often a little thing (like the possibility to show branches of the categories in a special color) that makes me fall in love with iMatch.

I am also working in "Software Development" and I am not only impressed with iMatch as an application, but also with your skill and endurance.

BIG THANKS for this enjoyable program which makes our lives easier.

[JoeHolzwurm]

Ok, I will try with English to explain my way through IMatch 5.
After the installation my first impression was: that looks good.
Then after some attempts to arrange the GUI I fell into a deep hole because I couldn't arrange everything as I wanted.
With the help of Mario and some users I could solve most of my problems and I am amazed about the possibilities which are behind all parts of the program. Until now I did not pass through all parts of the program but I am working on that. After the first problems I am sure that I will find a solution for all my questions or problems.
This is a very good software which allows a lot of things on a lot of different ways. Good job from you Mario.

The biggest problem will be to show and explain the benefit and the "how to" to all the users. The help file is good and contains a lot of information but I had (and have) my problems with it because of the language and the amount of information. I had the idea to produce some german video tutorials but I have no experience with that and no software to do that. I will think about it...

Altogether you did (and do) a very good job. Thank you.

[sinus]

IMatch5 is indeed a powerful and fascinating piece of software. Like other big products, say Photoshop, it offers a lot of things, but to lern and use all the stuff, you have to dive into IM quite a bit.
But, and that is great, you can use IM5 also on a simple way, you must not lern all the stuff (say for example versioning or keywording), but if you one day say to yourself "Hey, I want do this and that with my images" ... I am almost sure, you can do it with IMatch.

An incredible software and an wunderful, quick and "human" (menschlicher) support from Mario and the whole user-community!

[iCatch]

Very impressive in my book.

Never seen such a stable Beta like this.

No issues so far apart from the fact that import of MPEG-2 fails (see extra thread).

LR will leave my system very soon.

Thx for this and the great support.

Edit:
In order not to confuse people: MPEG-2 import works just fine. Only the rendering of thumbnails by Windows doesn´t work.

[ChrisMatch]

Maybe an additional thought about the 'problem' of having so many features.

I think it would be of great help to new users if we could provide them with typical step-by-step guides for typical situations. E.g. a photographer shooting raw and short movies -> what are the important steps he should take (typical settings).
I'm not concerned about features that I just can use later and ignore them at first - but
(like my on struggle with whether to use categories or keywords) I am concerned about barking up the wrong tree regarding the basic concepts and ideas.

[Mario]

I think it would be of great help to new users if we could provide them with typical step-by-step guides for typical situations. E.g. a photographer shooting raw and short movies -> what are the important steps he should take (typical settings)

I agree. But there is only one Mario, unfortunately. I cannot write all this myself. I'm not Adobe with a 100 person team rolling out a new version of LR or Photoshop 

And of course I'm spoiled - I have worked too deep and too long with IMatch 5 to be able to really understand the problems of users seeing and using IMatch 5 for the first time. I've made changes to the help the entire last week, adding new paragraphs here and there, linking new keywords to existing topics so users can find help topics easier etc. All this has to be done manually, and when I work one hour on the help, I cannot spend that time fixing bugs (I work on the help as a relief from fixing bugs  )

My hope is that some users will donate some of their time and write a couple of FAQ entries or How-To's articles in the appropriate board.

This is the first week of the beta so most users will still just struggle to get a grip on IMatch 5. In a few weeks, users will have established workflows and then maybe let others know about their approach via the FAQ board.

[ChrisMatch]

My hope is that some users will donate some of their time and write a couple of FAQ entries or How-To's articles in the appropriate board.

Yes, we should do that - the more we can help, the sooner we get a final version - what unselfish thinking

[Lincoln]

  Wow what can I say! - Just been delving into the Import-Export Attributes section. Within an hour I am able to export data in the format that I require. With 3.6 I needed the kind help of members of the forum to achieve the same result. Well done Mario!!!!

[Sorted]

Brilliant Mario! A monumental achievement. I concur with others: a stupendous piece of programming for a single programmer (looks like the work of a large team); one which  puts other organisations to shame (Nikon Capture is full of bugs and hopeless by comparison). Whilst it is going to take me many studious hours to familiarise myself even with IMatch 5's simplest features I feel that it will be more than worthwhile. A superb interface, very attractive and legible. Indeed, I think it has enhanced my pictures considerably!

In addition to thanking you, Mario, I must also praise those who have been lending an unseen hand with the testing and suggestions to say nothing of their help in the forums.

[kiwilink]

Mario:

Absolutely unbelievable program!  I hope I can learn how to use all of the features.  I really like the Google Map feature a lot and I hope there is a way for you to keep it.  I don't know what they charge to use it but if it was not a lot it sure would be great to keep it.  I am finding that Keywords and the Thesaurus are giving me the the newest challenge to learn how I can best make this work for me.  I am really enjoying the program and I hope I can help others someday as you all are helping me.  I felt really good about the previous versions and this is a BIG change and I really love it.  I'm not sure how much data I should import to test with so I'm starting with just a little bit of data.  The challenge is trying to understand how best to learn the features, play, and not screw it up.

Thanks for developing this great program!

Michael

[Mario]

I don't know what they charge to use it but if it was not a lot it sure would be great to keep it.

Me too. I don't change what Google delivers in the internal browser so all the advertisements etc. will be shown as well. The Rules of Service have changed several times over the past year and I'm not sure under which of the rules IMatch falls:

https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#section_9_1

The evaluation version will for sure be able to use Google Maps because it is free.
But when a user pays for the licensed version of IMatch 5, he uses an application which is not available for free and for everyone. So I would have to disable the Map panel in the paid version of IMatch 5.
On the other hand, when I remove the Map panel and (which is now possible) implement it instead as an IMatch App, and I give away this App for free, and the app can also be run in any browser without IMatch, it again may fall under the "Free" assumption as detailed in the terms of service. I am no lawyer and I cannot afford one.

If a user has some more knowledge about this, let me know.

And there are usage limits of 25,000 map lookups per day (when an IMatch user clicks on an image and has the maps panel open, this will count as one lookup). So 1000 users who use the map on 25 images per day will run out the free lookups. I expect this to happen very quickly.
From then on I would have to pay 1 US$ dollar for every additional 2000 lookups. Impossible. If this goes bad, it could easily cost thousands of dollars per day.
The only chance I would have is to disable the feature for all IMatch users as soon as the free limit has been reached. Or to distribute the web site over which IMatch accesses Google maps over multiple servers. All no problem for the big companies like Adobe, like it usually is. Money is a good way to keep the small businesses out.

It's all very difficult and a legal minefield  . Although I would like to offer my users the Map panel using Google Maps, I may need to remove it for legal reasons. You can then use the free and cool GeoSetter application instead.

[mgm1965]

I was expecting impatiently IMatch5 . And now I am really impressed.

My very firsty impression: I was confused from the change of the GUI.
After a day I have learned to use it (very little, but this is a my fault due the little time I put in it)

At the moment the worst thing is the "Updating" wait when the program updates the metadata (but again I think this is a my fault due the little time I have put to configure IMatch).

The GUI use better the screen space, the layout is excellent, but I've immediatly thinked of buying a new bigger monitor.

At the moment I have tryed my workflow in parallel between 3.6 and 5 and the better difference are:

Timeline
IM 3.6
I'm using a script to populate a category "Date" with: Year.Month.Day

IM 5 beta
It is done instantly during import withe te "Timeline"

Location
IM 3.6
I'm using Geonames and a script to populate a category "Location" with the hierarchy of IPTC Country.Region.City.Location

IM 5 beta
It is done "in" IMatch using the Maps panel, also filling missing gps data is done here "Very Good!"
And the category is well build by a "data-driven" category without effort.

Person
IM 3.6
I'm using category to Tag Person in the Photo (spent a lot f time)

IM 5 beta
With @keyword and ThesauruS this is done very well and better

Region and Face Tags are also interesting but much slower.
In this second case I  thought a different procedure:
- click on the face "icon"
- click on the Person Face on the photo
- choose from the Thesaurus or Category defined in the Face preference the Person tagged.
A second "expectation" was that the region will have three states: ON; OFF and "Mouse Over", to display the information only when the mouse is on the face region.

For the moment is all, but I'm playing...

Thank for that nice peace of software!

Marco

[andrewh]

It's all very difficult and a legal minefield  . Although I would like to offer my users the Map panel using Google Maps, I may need to remove it for legal reasons. You can then use the free and cool GeoSetter application instead.

I understand your frustration but geosetter really seems like zero overhead to me now that EXIF information is so well integrated in IMatch. I asked you about a thesaurus of hierarchical names but soon realised that simply using geosetter and dynamic categories solves everything (except that I cannot have continents as my top level, only countries)

Overall IMtach 5 is a real A* piece of work

Thanks so much
Andrew

[Mario]

I asked you about a thesaurus of hierarchical names

The IMatch thesaurus is fully hierarchical.
Geo-data like Country, City, Location etc. can be easily handled by a data-driven category which uses the corresponding XMP tags. IMatch 5 ships with a sample location category (IMatch Sample Categories | Location )

[dcb]

Much of my time spent with 23,000 image and video files in IMatch 3 has been pushing it where it reluctantly wanted to go. I say that because it could/can go to places where other similar applications cannot. The scripting engine of IMatch has always been one of its strong points, either for adding functionality, or protecting against the future knowing I could get my data out.

IMatch 5 makes most of the work I've done of the past several years redundant. 

When I import photos, I have a script that builds a date tree off the photo date (yyyy/mm/dd). Now the timeline does that for me. It's not perfect as I would like a way to override the date with something that is imprecise, e.g., Feb 2010 if I don't know the exact date. My category tree could do that. Now however, XMP flags are much more useful with collections so I can tag the file that way and put the imprecise date somewhere in the metadata.

I had scripts to copy information via ExifTool to XMP for those times I foolishly deleted files from the database accidentally and lost their metadata. Usually at a time when I was doing a big reorganisation so backups weren't as much use. Now the metadata writing is fantastic. I did write a script last night to handle splitting my location tree hierarchy into the tree fields as the metadata templates can't do that as I'd like (see https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=185.0) and will post the script under that thread as an example both of what I would like to see as a new category function plus something for others to learn from. I have to look at this too.

I asked you about a thesaurus of hierarchical names

The IMatch thesaurus is fully hierarchical.
Geo-data like Country, City, Location etc. can be easily handled by a data-driven category which uses the corresponding XMP tags. IMatch 5 ships with a sample location category (IMatch Sample Categories | Location )

In so many ways there are improvements:

* script organisation and access
* mapping (though not sure I'll leave GeoSetter for this now the metadata integrates so well)
* the help files (a monumental task in its own right)
* addition of keywords and the speed of entry will have me using them
* versioning is stunning and once more something that IMatch 3 needed scripts for. Relations are a beautifully elegant concept.

The system is a true beta (it has bugs) which is a rare thing these days. I even like that!

It runs on a Bootcamp partition on my Mac.

Thank you Mario for sticking to your guns and driving your own timelines on this.

[ChrisMatch]

Whether one likes google or not we have to admit that google maps seems to be the most useful service (at least of all the different once I have used). Especially finding places works better than elsewhere. So it would be a pity to abdicate it.

On the other hand, when I remove the Map panel and (which is now possible) implement it instead as an IMatch App, and I give away this App for free, and the app can also be run in any browser without IMatch,

What if you don't use Googles API but only interact with the browser passing on the needed URL/parameters? I assume the interface wouldn't be that feature-rich but at least one could use Google Maps to search for locations and show those from the images (in a normal browser window).
The way back (from browser to iMatch) could be solved with a litte java script behind a link/button (in the browser) that pastes the geo coordinates into the clipboard and from there you can use it within iMatch.
Not very elegant, but better than nothing 

From then on I would have to pay 1 US$ dollar for every additional 2000 lookups.

Is there no model where the user pays for his own usage?

You can then use the free and cool GeoSetter application instead.

Shouldn't GeoSetter be in the same situation as you describe it with "implement it instead as an IMatch App, and I give away this App for free" - so it should have the same problems !? (usage limit) -> If not, can't you "bring" a free app solution into the same situation?

The author of GeoSetter seems to like iMatch - and may even be an iMatch user!?
Maybe you can arange a cooperation with him to seamless integrate the free GeoSetter into iMatch?


Just a few thoughts - hope you find a way to do it.

[JohnZeman]

It's all very difficult and a legal minefield  . Although I would like to offer my users the Map panel using Google Maps, I may need to remove it for legal reasons. You can then use the free and cool GeoSetter application instead.

I love the Google map panel too and sure hope we can keep it but I understand the reasons why it may not be possible to do so. 
So I've added a button to the app I've been working on to show the currently selected image in Google Maps using the default web browser.



[attachment deleted by admin]

[jch2103]

Excellent!

[bonsai]

Great!

[stonecherub]

Learning IM5 requires me to completely re-evaluate my workflow. This is hard but I think it will be worth the effort. It looks to be an order of magnitude better for me than ID-imager. I have found several small things I would like changed but don't want to bother Mario while he is dealing with the big stuff.

Once I figure out what I am doing (IF I figure out ...), I will be happy to answer other people's questions.

About Google: The Geological Society of America gave an award to the guys who invented Keystone, the image distribution program that became Google Earth, because of its value to geologists (like me). Just after the annual meeting where the award was presented, Google revoked their privileges to OKMap, a product I was using because I could print images with UTM grid overlays for use in the field thereby reducing GE value to me. OKMap, like Geosetter, is free. "Do no evil" is not a philosophy, it's a slogan.

[Gerd]

Hi,
I'm very impressed about 5.0 and its stability. After solving some "learning-difficulties" I become more and more "warm" with it. Now I'm testing it only with a special copy of roundabout 4.000 pics, hopefully there would be soon a version (must not be the final), that I can use for my real 130.000 pics and can send 3.6 into retirement.

Great work! Thanks, Mario.

Regards
Gerd

[Schmidtze]

Although I would like to offer my users the Map panel using Google Maps, I may need to remove it for legal reasons

Mario, did you think already about using OpenLayers (http://openlayers.org/). I din't find the time by now, but my plan is it also to support it in GeoSetter. In my opinion it shouldn't be a big problem, it simply has to be done The use of the library is for free and the map data can be used from anywhere (for example also from Google). With OpenLayers it would be no problem to use a locally installed map server (WMS), then the user do not need an online connection anymore.

Best regards
Friedemann

[Mario]

I considered OpenLayers already, after Google changed their policy. Still, if you access Google Map data (because it has the best quality) via OpenLayers, the same license problems come up. For open source data like OpenStreetMap etc. there would be no problem. And there is only one API to support, at least that's what I had understood at that time (I looked into this 6 month ago).

This could be implemented as a normal IMatch App for IMatch 5. Basically an "open" replacement for the Map Panel IMatch has now.
This would allow the map to interface with IMatch, e.g. update GPS data in files, display markers based on the current selection.

I will unfortunately be unable to look into this for a while. Too many other things to do, most notably fixing bugs, change requests etc.

[Schmidtze]

So, as far as I understand it hasn't to be done by you, it can also be coded by anybody else... I see  Maybe I will take a closer look in your App-API some day... 

[Schmidtze]

But still one remark: I'm not sure if using Google from within OpenLayers will cause any costs. In my opinion the use of the map can be evaluated only with the help of your Google Maps API key and the use of Google Maps API itself. For OpenLayers no key is needed and the API does not send any information about usage to Google. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this would be possible to use without any costs...

[Mario]

Google Maps no longer requires a key - except for paid enterprise usage.

Google tracks the IP address from which API is accessed and then calculates usage and traffic.
You can work around that by using a HTML page stored on the users computer, and access Google Maps from there. Each user has a different IP and thus its own allowances of map lookups. But that (I think) violates Google's license agreement and the usage policies for maps. I could also setup multiple domains on different servers and randomly select one for each user. That maybe could worm around Google's license but I don't want all that. It's a legal minefield and Google has entire departments of lawyers in all bigger countries. And it's their service after all so they make the rules.

I think when you setup OpenLayers on your web site and you generate a lot of traffic to Google Maps, Google will black-list your IP or at least refuse new connects for the day.

[picolo]

IM5 is so powerful and it is fun to play with it...
Not sure if I ever will be able to use more than 5% of its possibilities.
Every day I try out new things and let me inspire by the posts in the community.
I have even the feeling that this IM5Beta is more reliable and has less bugs than PSU which has been released quite a few month back!

Thanks!

[Photon]

IM5 is so powerful and it is fun to play with it... Not sure if I ever will be able to use more than 5% of its possibilities. Every day I try out new things and let me inspire by the posts in the community. I have even the feeling that this IM5Beta is more reliable and has less bugs than PSU which has been released quite a few month back!

100% agree! I know picolo well from other fora. I also tested and used various other DAMs and required three trials with IM v3.6, because the complexity pushed me two times initially away and I gave up the trials. Having gone through the valley of desparation with other DAMs I am now happy that I did it with v3.6. IM v5.0 is even more feature rich AND stable AND fast than v3.6. Nothing compared to desparation with PSU vs IDI or MediaPro vs its predecessors.

And most important, the author Mario is very reactive, open minded, patient, customer oriented and always friendly.
This is completely different in the IDI and PSU forum, where a lot of professional users and faith customers are blamed and offended from author.
That is why it is important to treat Mario with reserve and contribute as good as possible. Not easy for positively "overmotivated" IM users and testers like me.
Mario, I wish you all required power, tolerance, health and success.

Kind Regards, Martin

[oldhank]

First impression is OUTSTANDING !
I will probably spend the rest of my life finding new features to put to use.

Your quick response to ?? is especially appreciated.

dnh 

[HansEverts]

As I already said in an earlier message, IM 5 looks wonderful with great potential, but the learning curve is even steeper than I suspected in the beginning. With the limited time I have available, I have not been able to do anything sensible (I won't give other readers the chance to make fun by giving examples of what I could not do), and I must admit the frustration is mounting a bit. I won't give up, but I retire in a few months and perhaps that will give me time to explore more in depth and give IMatch 5 the credit it doubtlessly deserves.

[Mario]

This is all not good 

With the limited time I have available, I have not been able to do anything sensible [...] and I must admit the frustration is mounting a bit.

Do you have problems creating the database? Or adding your files?

If you can give me some hints about what the problem is, I can do a lot. E.g give you tips, update the help files or Quick Start Guide,...
If I don't know where users struggle, I can't do anything about it.

See it this way: Users are never alone with their problems. If you have troubles using certain features or you can't find a workflow which works for you, other users will have the same problems. If we can do something now, other users will not have to go through the same experience.

[HansEverts]

Thanks Mario,

Only with IMatch one posts a message 8 AM saturday morning and one has an answer 19 minutes later. Don't know how you do it.

I am going on vacation now and I am sure in 3 weeks I see more clearly.

A concrete example. I copied a folder with images already included in Imatch 3.6, i.e. with categories, rating and all. I created a new database with the selected images and hoped to see the old categories, but I can't find them. So I look for an import function and I find 'category import', but when I click on 'run' I am asked for a file name and that is the end of it.

Perhaps I am just tired, and should simply try harder and read more, but perhaps also has the balance of what the user can do on intuition and for what a guideline is indispensable has tilted too much to the latter. I wonder what others think of that.

I am an old IMatch user and it takes more to get me off course, but at this point I have not reached that level of familiarity yet where you can simply enjoy exploring a new toy or tool.

[Mario]

A concrete example. I copied a folder with images already included in Imatch 3.6, i.e. with categories, rating and all. I created a new database with the selected images and hoped to see the old categories, but I can't find them. So I look for an import function and I find 'category import', but when I click on 'run' I am asked for a file name and that is the end of it.

Categories are stored as part of your database. In this case, in your IMatch 3 database. The categories are not stored in your image files, and thus cannot travel automatically into your IMatch 5 database.

Since there is currently no direct import for IMatch 3 into IMatch 5 databases (I'll add that later) you were on the right track with importing categories. All you need to do before is to export the categories from the IMatch 3 database into a file, which you can then import into your IMatch 5 database.

This is a frequently used task and I have written a FAQ for it:

How to migrate your categories from IMatch 3 to IMatch 5

[HansEverts]

Thanks, but it is actualy better. In IMatch 3 I copied my categories in the IPTC keyword field with the help of a script. IMatch 5 has used these keywords to create my complete set of categories and I found them again. Now I just have to master it, but a first hurdle was taken and the sun appears at the horizon. It looks great and sorry for letting myself be discouraged so easily.

[Mario]

IMatch 5 automatically imports IPTC, EXIF and XMP metadata contained in your files. Keywords are mapped and merged into one universal set of hierarchical keywords which you can see in the Keyword Panel.

In addition, IMatch produces a special category named @Keywords from the keywords in your files. This special category allows you to easily see which files have which keywords, even in combination. It also allows you to use your keywords (almost) like other categories, e.g. in category formulas, for display etc. There is an entire section in the help on the @Keyword category, and another one on the Keyword Panel. You'll find that IMatch 5 makes working with keywords easier than ever