Working with Capture One Pro v10 with IMatch

lnh · May 30, 2017, 06:17:10 PM

I've recently had to add Capture One Pro as a raw processor due to the lack of support for Fuji RAFs in DxO. This has made me try to figure out the best way to work between the two products. As a reference, I consulted previous posts:

https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=3149.msg20621#msg20621
https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=2407.0
https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=5227.msg38904#msg38904

I've largely followed prior advice, but with some slight variations.

1) I do not use either sessions or catalogs. If you just navigate to the folder of the files you'd like to manipulate, it appears that Capture One does not do anything but create it's crazy mess of metadata/preview proprietary files in a ...\Capture One\ sub-directory. Kinda ridiculous, but the buddy file topic referenced above lets you mange that mess. I think dragging and dropping to a Capture One shortcut in IMatch may get you to that same point, but I'm not 100% sure. I like this method instead of using sessions as it seems sessions also copies your files to another directory within it's session folder structure. Not sure the sessions really add much anyways.

2) The other thing I've done is turn off Edit/Preferences/Image/Auto Sync sidecar XMP. I'm not 100% sure on this but I was finding my IMatch hierarchical keywords were getting flattened out and showing up in IMatch. I believe there are options to allow or suppress this kind of thing when using hierarchical keywords solely within IMatch, but I've never setup IMatch in that way, so suspect it behavior was coming from Capture One modifying my metadata. A bit more use between the two products should verify if this was issue or not.

With only one exception, I do not create or modify any metadata while in Capture One. The one exception is to fill in the IPTC description field with a color profile name (if used) so it can be automatically appended as part of my file naming scheme. Capture One seems like a very good raw editor, and at least you can make it work with IMatch without importing into a redundant database as Lightroom requires.

Jingo · May 31, 2017, 02:02:44 PM

Not sure if my "unique" workflow will help.. but I do things a bit differently:

Jingo's Workflow:

DownloaderPro

- Launched automatically when memory card inserted into computer...
- Images are downloaded onto local photo drive, renamed based on camera model (ie: EM5-II_100456.ORF) and placed into directories based upon image date (G:\Photos\2017\2017-04).

Capture One

- I then launch C1 with its default catalog (I don't really use the catalog except to store my RAW edits for future tweaks if needed).
- I import images from the folder(s) above and apply a develop preset (reduce highlights, add sharpening, etc).
- I then run through the images and cull and perform general edits to all spending more time with those images considered top shots.
- I then batch export them to full resolution JPG's which get placed out on my NAS server using the same filename and folder structure.

IMatch

- I then launch Imatch which find all the new images (watched folders) and imports them into the database.
- I then go through and rate, keyword, label and even further cull (if needed).
- I then export all metadata out to the files (for 3rd party use).

IMatch Anywhere

- Finally, I copy my Imatch DB to my IMatch Anywhere DB
- Sit on my couch and view images with family using web browser.

Now, I consider my JPG files to be the final master versions... I hardly ever go back to my RAW files for further tweaking unless I really don't like something in the JPG or wish to see how something may look in another style. Then, I create a variant in C1 and export that variant as a new JPG which is then imported and versioned with the original. Rarely do I do this though...

If I ever want to find an image, I'm always in Imatch... but - since the name and folder paths are the same, I can easily locate the image in C1 that way as well.

Hope this helps... someone!

sinus · May 31, 2017, 02:28:39 PM

Jingo

nice workflow and nice end (sit with family and watch your photos).

I considered also once to bring only the jpgs into IMatch.
But I take, say, 100 images. 50 I do edit and create 50 versions. Means 150 images.
If I now bring the raws (nef) outside of IMatch, I see not more the "not edited" and sometimes this is a must.

But of course I could also imagine such a workflow.
At the moment I hold all files in the db, IMatch2017 should be even quicker, hence I can have hope, that my workflow is even smoother, if I upgrade once (I have to wait, until I have the time to write new some imortant scripts, what I cannot renounce now.)

Thanks for sharing.

Menace · May 31, 2017, 04:21:15 PM

My simple Workflow:

Capture One:

Download from card (Rename with Date in the folder of today-Date).
Delete what I don't want

IMatch

Tag
Rate

Capure One

Editing Images
Export to -> jpg

IMatch

save the Tags from the jpg
copy to the folders (Privat, Naturfotos, ...)

In this way, all of my files have the keywords/Tags.

Jingo · June 01, 2017, 01:44:33 PM

Sinus - thx... the workflow has taken many years to narrow down what works for me and my family based upon my "photography and post processing style". I agree that since my computers and, most importantly, IMatch has gotten so much faster over the past few iterations - the need to only keep JPG's in the DB is probably not as critical. But, since I rarely go back to reprocess a RAW file, it seems like the most logical solution to keep things super fast and easy for the family.

Menace - nice to see I'm not the only one following such a workflow! :-)

lnh · June 02, 2017, 10:19:12 PM

After some more interaction between Capture One Pro and IMatch 2017, I'm understanding the metadata issue better and think I know what Capture One is doing. I'll illustrate it with an example:

An original image (which will become a Master in IMatch) is already tagged using the following metadata (extracted via ECP):
[XMP-lr] Hierarchical Subject : transportation|marine|canoe
transportation|automotive|car|sedan
plants|tree
street

An output image created by Capture One creates the following metadata:
[XMP-lr] Hierarchical Subject : transportation|marine|canoe
transportation|automotive|car|sedan
plants|tree
street
marine
transportation
automotive
car
plants

Capture One has kept the hierarchical subject, but added to this list "flatten out" hierarchical subjects from those initial subjects. They end up getting added to IMatch when I re-scan the folder. Right now I handle the problem by versioning the Capture One generated file with the original and propagate data to the versions which ends up removing the added flattened out keywords. I then set the properties for @Keywords so "Keep empty categories=No".

I don't know if any officially agreed upon rules exist regarding how to handle XMP-lr subjects, but the way Capture One does it seems crazy and unavoidable through any setting I've seen inside the software. You can prevent your master from getting modified through the preference mentioned in the initial post, but all output seems to have this blight. I've submitted a support request to Phase One, but I'm sure there is a very small likelihood it will change unless they are violating some standard rule.

Can anyone think of a better work around?

Mario · June 03, 2017, 07:53:38 AM

It is usually best to edit metadata only in one application. Or to use only applications which handle metadata properly, apply the MWG rules and recommendation. Usually your DAM is for metadata management, and your image editor / RAW processor / Vector editor / ... is for editing.

Menace · June 03, 2017, 11:44:30 AM

I am currently not at home, so I can't prove it. But isn't there a option in C1, just to read the Metadata?

1. IMatch: Files relation (same name and/or date).
2. IMatch: Tag your RAWs
3. C1 convert your RAWs to jpgs/tiffs with the same name
4. => Hasn't IMatch already tagged the jpgs with the same metadata like the RAWs?
5. Ride the metadata to xmp by IMatch

Jingo · June 03, 2017, 02:42:18 PM

You can prevent exported images from including certain metadata using a process recipe... this is what I do for my output JPG's since I only add metadata via IMatch.

In the Output panel - click the Metadata Tab for the Process Recipe and uncheck the metadata categories you do not want to include in the output file... this will prevent C1 from exporting XMP metadata. Hope this helps...

lnh · June 03, 2017, 05:05:45 PM

Quote from: Mario on June 03, 2017, 07:53:38 AM
It is usually best to edit metadata only in one application. Or to use only applications which handle metadata properly, apply the MWG rules and recommendation. Usually your DAM is for metadata management, and your image editor / RAW processor / Vector editor / ... is for editing.

Couldn't agree more, but the editing products I'm willing to use are making that approach harder all the time. The problem here is Capture One changing things without asking for a change. On a bright note, the response from Phase One tech support indicates they view the behavior of their program as described as a bug and will submit it to the developers. I've also been using the IMatch batch processor for many downsizing operations where the image isn't in need of tweaking. Of course it handles the metadata properly.

Quote from: Menace on June 03, 2017, 11:44:30 AM
I am currently not at home, so I can't prove it. But isn't there a option in C1, just to read the Metadata?

1. IMatch: Files relation (same name and/or date).
2. IMatch: Tag your RAWs
3. C1 convert your RAWs to jpgs/tiffs with the same name
4. => Hasn't IMatch already tagged the jpgs with the same metadata like the RAWs?
5. Ride the metadata to xmp by IMatch

No sure you can read only, but still finding new features of C1 so maybe it's there but haven't found it yet. In your step 4, the problem is the JPG doesn't exist when the tagging of the master took place, and C1 has already added the flatten keywords to the JPG metadata when you re-scan in IMatch and version. However, when I propagate data to versions, IMatch gets rid of the flattened out C1 added keywords.

Quote from: Jingo on June 03, 2017, 02:42:18 PM
You can prevent exported images from including certain metadata using a process recipe... this is what I do for my output JPG's since I only add metadata via IMatch.

In the Output panel - click the Metadata Tab for the Process Recipe and uncheck the metadata categories you do not want to include in the output file... this will prevent C1 from exporting XMP metadata. Hope this helps...

That is a good point. I see that now in the recipe. I'd still prefer they handle keywords properly as eliminating keyword writing in the recipe would still require you to propagate data to versions in IMatch to fill in the correct keywords (which I'm already doing to fix the problem).

Menace · June 03, 2017, 05:57:26 PM

Capture One Pro 10: Don't know the exact english words: Option (Voreinstellungen) -> Image (Bild) -> Sidecare XMP automatic synchronization (Pull down Menue) -> Load

But the problem will stille exist. I didn't recognize the problem, because IMatch just work so perfect and correct C1.

Jingo · June 03, 2017, 10:14:33 PM

Quote from: lnh on June 03, 2017, 05:05:45 PM
That is a good point. I see that now in the recipe. I'd still prefer they handle keywords properly as eliminating keyword writing in the recipe would still require you to propagate data to versions in IMatch to fill in the correct keywords (which I'm already doing to fix the problem).

This is the precise reason I don't try to use my RAW Editor to manage my metadata and why I also don't bother to include my RAW files (which I consider just digital negatives) in my DAM.. but each person's workflow is kinda personal to their own needs. Enjoy!

Erik · June 05, 2017, 09:28:09 PM

Quote from: Jingo on June 03, 2017, 10:14:33 PM
Quote from: lnh on June 03, 2017, 05:05:45 PM
That is a good point. I see that now in the recipe. I'd still prefer they handle keywords properly as eliminating keyword writing in the recipe would still require you to propagate data to versions in IMatch to fill in the correct keywords (which I'm already doing to fix the problem).

This is the precise reason I don't try to use my RAW Editor to manage my metadata and why I also don't bother to include my RAW files (which I consider just digital negatives) in my DAM.. but each person's workflow is kinda personal to their own needs. Enjoy!

The problem with RAW editors is that they often take the metadata in the RAW image and save it to the exported image, sometimes incorrectly. This isn't something that is easy to control. This isn't a case of a user trying to manage metadata with the RAW editor, but the RAW editor insisting on managing metadata.

This is actually what makes versioning great as the OP noted in the solution for the flat keywords. Unexpected issues like the OP had given me problems over the years, so my versioning setup essentially treats all new versions as if they are new and "blank" with respect to metadata by over-writing the metadata with want from the master.

lnh · June 06, 2017, 05:33:45 PM

Quote from: Erik on June 05, 2017, 09:28:09 PM

The problem with RAW editors is that they often take the metadata in the RAW image and save it to the exported image, sometimes incorrectly. This isn't something that is easy to control. This isn't a case of a user trying to manage metadata with the RAW editor, but the RAW editor insisting on managing metadata.

This is actually what makes versioning great as the OP noted in the solution for the flat keywords. Unexpected issues like the OP had given me problems over the years, so my versioning setup essentially treats all new versions as if they are new and "blank" with respect to metadata by over-writing the metadata with want from the master.

This is exactly the point I was dealing with. I had no desire to manage any metadata in Capture One; just really wanted it to ignore metadata. Guess my workflow should follow your advice and just always overwrite the metadata in the newly imported file from C1. In versioning setup I currently just propagate select items (categories, XMP Copyright, XMP Copyright Marked, XMP Keywords, XMP Location Data, and EXIF GPS Data). I've been hesitant to choose the All Metadata option as Mario's tool tip says to treat this carefully only under special circumstances. Just curious how you set your versioning? A flexible and robust versioning capability was really the primary reason I originally moved to IMatch 5.x.