My new smart phone speaks DNG

[Mario]

After quite a number of years, I finally had to replace my smart phone. Touch screen failure, too old to repair economically.
I don't replace my smart phones often and since I was using Cyanogen / Lineage OS, I had a modern version of Android with all recent security patches.

I always buy mid-range smart phones. And I prefer a as unmodified as possible Android version. Without tons bloatware and kernel-deep modifications done by the smart phone vendor to 'brand' the phone. A clean Android improves the chance for getting security updates fast. Or to root the phone and switch to Lineage OS.

Anyway, after scouring the market and comparing the options, I finally settled for a phone designed in Spain. Neat. Very good value for the money.

A good camera was of course an important criteria for my new purchase.
The phone has a Sony 16 MP camera on the back, with full HD and even 4K videos support, HDR (3 images), manual ISO and shutter speed, f2.0 fix, dual-tone flash. From my first tests, a very fast and accurate auto focus as well.

And it not only speaks JPG but also can save images as DNG RAW. Very nice, and it came as a surprise. Did not know that before.
It's truly amazing what they can pack in these small units these days.

[herman]

Congratulations!
I know the feeling, having bought a decent model myself some time ago which also can deliver images in DNG.

And isn't it amazing that you can place a phone call trough a camera these days? 

[Kucera]

Hi, is it appropriate to inquire as to the model? My cell phone is on only for emergencies, has no smarts and has not been manufactured, let alone supported, for many years. It dials and sounds good, which is fine as is, but I am afraid that one of these days I may _have to get a smart phone, and for that a recommendation like yours would be invaluable. Thanks.

[Mario]

I still have one of these full-metal Nokia business smart phones from the past. These were "unkaputtbar" (undestroyable) as we say here in Germany. Still works as a en emergency phone, alarm clock etc.

This time I decided to buy top of the line but still affordable phone from BQ (https://www.bq.com/en/aquaris-x). Your mileage may vary.

I wanted

- a good camera (image and video) with manual control
- a real 3.6mm ear phone socket (I use the smart phone for navigation while driving my motorcycle and that means all audio)
- a built-in compass (which improves the GPS and navigation a lot)
- a clean Android (without bloatware) BQ installs only two own apps: Their excellent camera app and an insurance app
- finger print sensor for safe and quick lock/unlock
- Wi-Fi
- NFC (for payments)

It was quite a challenge to sieve through all the current phones to find one that has it all. Integrated compass or a ear phone plug was usually the problem.

[ubacher]

I was also keen to see how dng files work out on phones.
Her my experience with a Samsung Galaxy S8:
If I use the Pro option it will generate a DNG file - but the dng file does not contain the GPS data!
(The accompanying jpg does.)

So I tried Open Camera: it generates DNG files but these contain the time stamp in UTC ("zero time") while
the accompanying jpg file contains the local time.

Converting the time to make dng and jpg match is easy with Imatch.
Copying the GPS data from the jpg to the dng I have not attempted. Not so easy with Imatch - is it?

As to the advantages of dng: only in some difficult situations can one improve on the built in jpg.

[Mario]

Not so easy with Imatch - is it?

Why not?
PS.: My phone also records the GPS data only in the JPG. Bugger. One should think that Google/others should be able to do this properly.

[JohnZeman]

I have an iPhone 7 Plus and while the default camera app only generates JPGs or TIFFs, there are specialty camera apps available in the App Store that can generate DNGs with the 7+.

I use an app called ProCamera and love it.  I'm almost embarrassed to say I take as many photos now with my cell phone (DNG format) as I take with my big Canon's.

And all GPS data is automatically embedded.

[Mario]

I have an direct email to the smart phone vendor's camera app developers and maybe it still works. I've sent a question. If they can embed the GPS in the JPEG, they should also be able to embed it in the DNG.

[ubacher]

What would be the easiest way in Imatch to copy GPS data from jpg to dng?

(the other way round, assuming versioning is set up, could be made automatic.)

[Mario]

ExifTool on the command line. Numerous examples on the ExifTool web site.

[Jingo]

What would be the easiest way in Imatch to copy GPS data from jpg to dng?

(the other way round, assuming versioning is set up, could be made automatic.)

An Imatch app!    perhaps I will make one!

[Mario]

It can also fully automated if you make the DNG a version of the JPG and use XMP metadata propagation.

[Mario]

I've received notice from BQ. After just one day. A good sign. Unfortunately, they were not able to help me.

They basically use the DNG implementation provided by Google / Qualcomm in the current Android version, and this implementation cannot write GPS data to DNG files.

This is not untypical for Google, because they are mostly in interested in JPEG files uploaded into their cloud so they can learn about you. And if these JPEG files have GPS data, Google can learn more about you. DNG files probably are not important for them.

Anyway, BQ told me they look into things for future camera app updates.
I tried to explain my point and why DNG support with proper metadata support could become an USP for them 

[lnh]

I have a Nexus 5x running the latest Android version (7.1.2 July security update). I purchased the 3rd party app called Camera FV5 which supports DNG output as well. I really don't take many "serious" pictures with my phone camera, but did do some testing with DNG output from that app.

First, the DNG and JPG both have GPS data embedded if you configure it to geotag. I checked the files with exiftool. Somewhat weird is that the JPG and DNG of the same shot have slightly different GPS coordinates. The DateTimeOriginal and CreateDate are 2 seconds apart which no doubt is causing the GPS differences. It's only taking one shot, but the app must embed the GPS coordinates at the time of DNG creation which might be a little different.

With regard to the Camera FV5 app itself, I'd say it's just OK. For the longest time they had the orientation of the sensors upside down. Not the end of the world, but if you're trying to send a quick photo to someone it just added another step to edit in Pixlr or Snapseed. After numerous updates, it's finally right. In looking at the DNG files in edge case conditions, you start to realize how the phone vendor has done a bunch of optimization of their JPG engine. For a while I wondered if it was possible to beat the JPG by editing the DNG. It is, but it's not a clear win like you find in relatively large sensor cameras. You might work hard at first just to get it as good as the out of phone JPG. The app also seems to be unkind to your battery. To be honest, I hardly ever use it anymore and just stick with JPGs out of the basic Google Camera app.

[Mario]

As far as I understood BQ, they could add GPS data to the DNG if they implement this themselves. Which is probably what the vendor of your other camera software did.
But giving the quick release cycles and the very limited lifetime of modern smart phones, I doubt it would be commercially interesting for BQ to spend time with this. But their camera app is indeed very good and the JPEGs coming out are very good for such a small sensor/lens. Still, it may be useful to get DNG for HDR shots to have the RAW data to work with in Ps or Lr.  Copying GPS data from the JPEG to the DNG is quickly done with ECP.

[jch2103]

With regard to the Camera FV5 app itself, I'd say it's just OK. For the longest time they had the orientation of the sensors upside down. Not the end of the world, but if you're trying to send a quick photo to someone it just added another step to edit in Pixlr or Snapseed. After numerous updates, it's finally right. In looking at the DNG files in edge case conditions, you start to realize how the phone vendor has done a bunch of optimization of their JPG engine. For a while I wondered if it was possible to beat the JPG by editing the DNG. It is, but it's not a clear win like you find in relatively large sensor cameras. You might work hard at first just to get it as good as the out of phone JPG. The app also seems to be unkind to your battery. To be honest, I hardly ever use it anymore and just stick with JPGs out of the basic Google Camera app.

My experience also (but on a Nexus 5).