[OFFICIAL] Discontinuing Support for Windows 7...

[Mario]

I have upgraded (finally) the code base of IMatch 2020 to the latest version of the programming environment I use: Microsoft Visual Studio 2019. This was long due. I've used Visual Studio 2017 until recently. This upgrade has many advantages. From a more modern C++ compiler and development environment to tons of problems fixed in the runtime which IMatch is based upon.

Microsoft has (again, sigh!) changed the way the required runtime components for IMatch and other applications have to be installed on target computers. This was unexpected.
After spending two days trying to make it work with the install builder software I used for the past 3 years, I've had to give up. No way to make this work reliably. Or I'm to stupid, which is entirely possible.

So, I've switched to another renowned install builder software. Learned it. Spent two or three days (including the weekend) to make a new IMatch installer. Googled. Fixed the problems. And it finally worked. The new installer runs as smoothly for you as the old one did. And it is able to install the components required by IMatch and the Microsoft runtime environment. It has also some other advantages like multi-language support, allowing the user to automatically start IMatch after the installation is complete etc.

Great.

But.

It seems that Microsoft really has abandoned Windows 7 now.
The runtime component installer seems to be missing some components which allow IMatch to run on Windows 7. As it seems.
At least I could not get it to work on Windows 7.

I took great care not to use any functions in IMatch which are only available in Windows 8 or later version.
Which includes the functions which (apparently?) cause the "Missing DLL" on Windows 7 error. As per Microsoft documentation, these functions are part of Windows 10, and available on Windows 7 SP1 and later via the normal Windows update. No separate install is possible or needed.

Still, when I try to start IMatch 2020.4.10 on Windows 7, it fails with a "<long name>.dll missing".

This means I'm giving up for now. The toolkit vendors also have announced end-of-support for Windows 7 for this year and, honestly, who is still using a 12 year old operating system today?

I need to ship an IMatch update soonest to help the users who are affected by the "memory leakage" problem when processing RAW files (see #01127). I then may spend some additional time trying to make this release work on Windows 7. But I cannot guarantee it. Using a Windows 7 PC today is dangerous anyway.

[bonsai]

Thx for the info.

...and, honestly, who is still using a 12 year old operating system today?

Me 

I then may spend some additional time trying to make this release work on Windows 7. But I cannot guarantee it.

So I'll wait to upgrade to v2020 until you say it will work with Windows 7.

Using a Windows 7 PC today is dangerous anyway.

No, that's not dangerous. Windows 7 is a solid reliable platform in contrast to Windows 10.

Ok guys I'm prepared for the shitstorm 

[claudermilk]

Makes sense. It's really long past time for the Win7 holdouts to update. Even my work PCs are now on 10. As per usual with this OS, Win7 was solid and reliable. 8 sucked. 10 is now solid.

[Mario]

So I'll wait to upgrade to v2020 until you say it will work with Windows 7.

Previous versions of IMatch 2020 work (up to 2020.4..
Just don't install IMatch 2020.4.10 or later. Maybe I get it to work on W7. Maybe not. Not sure if lots of work in that direction is justified.

No, that's not dangerous. Windows 7 is a solid reliable platform in contrast to Windows 10.

If you are willing to risk it. Just don't let it connect to the Internet. Not even firewalls can protect you from everything.
But that's not a discussion for this post. This has been discussed over the years many times in many forums already.

Ps: That image is a fake  It should read: "Boing - we finally..."

[Jingo]

Honestly - I don't upgrade OS's all that often.. but the move from Win 7 to 10 makes an awful lot of sense.  You may be able to get by for awhile.. but then programs won't run any longer as support for older aspects of 7 are not supported.  Happens to me all the time on MacOS.... take the update or you can't install newer software...  User's choice but at some point - it just makes sense to use the latest and greatest.

[Mario]

It all ends anyway when one of the vendors of the 3rd party toolkits, components and libraries I use finally kicks W7 out of support.
All have announced this for this year anyway. And we're nearly in the middle of the year already...

[Carlo Didier]

Forget W7. Don't waste time on it. It was good in it's time, but that's long ago.
W10 is aready over 5 years old and it doesn't make any sense sticking with W7 anymore.

I have to admit that in the company I work for we still have 2 or 3 W7 boxes (out of over 3000 worldwide). Those are because of very, very special industrial hardware and/or software and since January this year they are all completely isolated and cannot be conneted to our network anymore for obvious security reasons (imagine a computer which controls things in a blast furnace to get hacked!).

[Mario]

One user with a Windows 8.1 box wrote me last night that it fails on his system too.
This is what I will look into today. I've had an idea last night but way too tired to check it.

Windows 7 is dead indeed (and good riddens), but there are still a few users around.
And there are also users who don't want to upgrade to Windows 10 for other reasons (most likely hardware-related, because of privacy concerns or too much bad press, I dunno).
And for the governmental and institutional users: They sometimes even run Windows XP machines (shudder) and many Windows 7.

I need to get this working somehow. As I said, this completely surprised me yesterday. I'm sure I get this compatibility back, at least for some time.

[mopperle]

Mario, please do not waste your time with Windows 7, even when some users start to complain.
There is definitely no reason not to move to Windows 10. Old hardware is also not a reason. For example I'm using my old Nikon LS4000ED on Windows 10, although it shouldnt even run on Windows 7.
And people having such an old hardware should think about buying a cheap computer with Windows 7 and run their old hardware on that machine and IMatch on a Windows 10 machine. I myself are in the software business (security for enterprise customers) and our company stopped dealing with customers sticking to Windows 7. They moved to our competition which is meanwhile extremly "happy" with those customers. 

[Mario]

I agree.

But the problem is only a dependency on some Windows (!) components like "api-ms-win-core-normalization-l1-1-0.dll" which somehow are introduced by Visual Studio 2019.
These DLLs are actually supported to be installed by Windows Update (even for Windows 7) but they are not installed on my W7 boxes, despite they have all updates.

I have found various reports about these DLLs (and many from the "Download the missing DLL" virus web sites), some even in the Adobe forums.
These DLLs cannot be distributed, they are supported to be just "there", automatically installed and updated by Windows update.

Nothing in IMatch needs anything specific to Windows 8 or higher. It's only since I've switched to Visual Studio 2019 last week that this dependency was introduced. And I don't know yet where it comes from. I use the same platform and Windows SKD (W7 and later) as before. Very puzzling.

[ColinIM]

Thx for the info.
(....)

Using a Windows 7 PC today is dangerous anyway.

No, that's not dangerous. Windows 7 is a solid reliable platform in contrast to Windows 10.

Ok guys I'm prepared for the shitstorm 

Hi @Bonsai,
I'm in your corner (I'm still using Windows 7) ... and I'm standing right alongside you.

My response to others who tell me how wonderful Windows 10 is and how terribly awfully bad Windows 7 is, is to put my fingers in my ears and shout back "LA LA LA LA LA LA ...". 

But it's also true, sadly, that when Mario and other developers 'meet up' against Microsoft, then they're dealing with an immovable object.

( .... ) Maybe I get it to work on W7. Maybe not. Not sure if lots of work in that direction is justified.

Mario, I think you'd win further applause and much gratitude from all your remaining Windows 7 users if you could bring us one final Windows 7-compatible version (let's call it a "Windows 7 watershed" version), with only minor bugs outstanding (and entirely at your discretion which bugs would remain).

That would soften the shock of discovering, suddenly, that IMatch version 2020.4.8 - with its existing list of bugs (big or small) - was the 'final' version for those of us unable or unwilling to move sideways onto Windows 10.

(At the risk of pushing my luck ... it would be very good also if - for a limited period of say 6 months - you could keep a matching snapshot of that "Windows 7 watershed" version's Help available too, somehow, somewhere.)

I do not want to re-open the argument(s) for or against Windows 10 here, but it would be reasonable to predict that within (say) another year from now, even the most determined Windows 7 IMatch user(s) will have yielded to the Windows 10 Borg or will have moved away from Windows altogether.  Either way it would be good to be able to 'look back' with a smile at this unexpected IMatch event.

I respect that you must juggle many development priorities, but (in my humble opinion) you would win a lot of gratitude and (surely also?) much positive 'IMatch PR' if you could offer us one final, tidy, "Windows 7 watershed" version of IMatch?

Yours hopefully,

[Mario]

Windows 7 is really, really dead. If you don't like W10, why not upgrade to at least something not 12 years old, like Windows 8.1...?
Although I admit that W8 was crap (the UX!!!!) and W10 made it right.

[PaulS]

I'm just one user, but my experience with Windows 10 has been very positive.  I liked W7 but hated W8.  I upgraded all of my W7/W8 computers to W10 as soon as possible in 2015 and never had an issue.

This includes 4 HP, ASUS, and Toshiba W7 notebooks (including a 2009 HP with FireWire interface that is now 10+ years old and still fully supported with Windows 10 updates) and a few W8 notebooks.

I've also had Microsoft, ASUS, HP, and Lenovo computers that came with Windows 10 and haven't had an issue.

There are some differences that can take time to get used to, but I have never regretted changing from W7.

[claudermilk]

In other words, come on in, the water's fine. 

With the 7 or so machines I semi-directly support the worst problem has been the stupid sound driver glitch in the update last November. That only affected two machines both of which are working now (and one was probably because it's something like 7 years old).

[sinus]

That reminds me a little bit, sorry I'm writing there, that I've heard a lot in my life.
You like to hold on to the old you know, even love a little.

That's human.
Here in Switzerland and Germany (I think Austria too), was e.g. a spelling reform.
I myself would have liked to keep the old one, but phew, fortunately I quickly realized that there is no point. All children learn the new reform at school, should I keep the old one just because I know it well and don't like the new one?

No, I changed quickly but it was hard to believe how long newspapers, companies and people argued that the old one was much better and so on.

Or even longer back ... what kind of a fight was it until (almost) everybody realized that it is probably better to wear seat belts in the car? Also my father complained, intervention in freedom, not necessary and so on.
Until after years !! he realized it.

Even when changing from the old IMatch, I think 3.xx, it was very difficult for me (mainly because of visual Basic, which was dropped) to switch to the new IMatch and I did not like, what Mario did. 
But now, of course, I am 10 times happy.

There would be many more examples (ahem, about relationships, leaving a partner for a new one I don't even want to talk about, it's much too dangerous) and maybe my comparisons are stupid ... but it reminds me simply.

Personally, I think Win10 is very good, although I also got along with 7 and 8. And I also got along with MS-DOS and Atari ST 

[ColinIM]

Hi all,

(LA LA LA La La ....) 

Just for the record ... this is not a question of (me) trying to hold onto the 'familiar', or being reluctant to accept whatever is 'new'.  I've always been a fan of technology and I usually hurry to embrace enhancements and improvements.

From the point of view of a working computer, I don't deny that Windows 10 *is* solid and stable.

My problem is not about the computing merits of Windows 10.  My dislike of Windows 10 is a lot more complex than simply how good it might be (or not) as a vehicle for running software programs. 

Please accept that you and I are probably looking at Windows 10 through different lenses.

TL;DR

1.  As a champion of (online) privacy I have emphatically lost trust in Microsoft as a supplier and maintainer of an Operating System (in this case a Windows 10 computer) into which I would invest all aspects of my personal life. (You'll have heard arguments about impossible-to-stop, not fully documented telemetry for example.)

2.  As someone who is keen to buy and to use the latest and best technology, but who is similarly determined not to be a target for daft or trivial "features" (in Windows 10) that Microsoft imagines I might enjoy, I have to jump through multiple hoops in Microsoft's obscure licensing policies to obtain the version of Windows 10 (the 'LTSB edition') that would graciously grant me the option of choosing which Operating System components I want - and which ones I don't want to be installed.

3.  Even then ... Microsoft have strongly hinted that they'd really, really like to have Windows 10 evolve over time into a platform for their delivery of "software as a service", similar to Office 360 - which would erode (or dilute, or at least change) my relationship with what I believe should be my computer - and which is a concept that puts many long-time techies (including me) on edge.  No thank you.

Please understand that it's not as simple as someone just being reluctant to 'embrace the new', and it's not some theory about Windows 7 being a "better Operating System" than Windows 10.

So I'll say again:  Please accept that you and I are probably looking at Windows 10 through different lenses.

Finally, you can be sure that (speaking for myself) my aversion to Microsoft's current ethos is far from being a trivial matter when, as a consequence, I'm already unable to upgrade my IMatch beyond v2020.4.8 ...

That's all I will say about Windows 10. (You'll be pleased to hear!)

[bonsai]

@ColinIM
You've nailed it, thank you +++

[Mario]

Even if I get it back to work this time, support for Windows 7 for IMatch will run out in a couple of months. The toolkit vendors have abandoned it, Microsoft has discontinued support in January.

This is a dead end. And by a rough guess from telemetry and browser statistics, 98% of all IMatch users or people visiting my site use Windows 10.
I recommend looking into Linux or MacOS as an alternative if you don't want to use Windows 10 for whatever reasons.
You can run W10 or W7 or W8 inside a VirtualBox under Linux if you need Windows software. This way you can isolate W7 properly from the Internet and reduce the security risks.

[mopperle]

support for Windows 7 for IMatch will run out in a couple of months.

Another reason not to waste a second on a dead OS
And people being so concerned about privacy, should stay away from internet. 

[ColinIM]

( .... )
You can run W10 or W7 or W8 inside a VirtualBox under Linux if you need Windows software. This way you can isolate W7 properly from the Internet and reduce the security risks.

Yes, I'm actually looking - possibly, tentatively, and very reluctantly - at running Windows 10 as a virtual machine while also using that virtual environment to reign it in, as much as that's feasible to do.

I'm already drooling over the new hardware that I'll buy to host this (possible) arrangement, and that's the easy part, but the host OS that I use will depend on my finding a workable & well-tried permutation of VirtualBox - or VMWare Workstation at a push - on one of the 'big name' Linux distributions.

[Mario]

You are making your life unnecessarily hard, IMHO.

Many Linux systems also 'phone home', reporting telemetry and usage data.
If you don't want any of this, your choice for Linux versions becomes more limited. And you will have to work actively for your 'extra privacy'.

Windows 10 has 1 billion installations. 1000 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000 installations.
Unless you link it to a Microsoft account (which is optional for all paid Windows 10 versions), it is rather unlikely that MS will learn anything about you Google or Apple don't already know...
If you have a smart phone, you are constantly feeding data to Apple/Google and others. A lot more than you will feed to MS by using a free W10 release.
Same when you use a browser. Unless you take severe measures from noScript to uBlock...

Or do you have a nVidea graphic card? They also phone home all the time.
AMD probably too.

But your mileage will vary.
I'd rather lock down my smart phone as much as possible, and use W10.

[Carlo Didier]

Just a note about that telemetry discussion: There are so many hackers and privacy advocates/specialists around the world (probably hundreds of thousands) and W10 has been around for so many years now.

Don't you think that any serious privacy issue would have been discovered, proven (!) and publicised since long? Just think about that ...

[ColinIM]

Don't you think that any serious privacy issue would have been discovered, proven (!) and publicised since long? Just think about that ...

Ohhh! Touché. That's a genuinely fair point Carlo!!

And it's a deeply ironic point for me because it's the very same general response I have used myself - many times (although not in a privacy context) - when I've tried to quell someone's unjustified fear about this or that ... about some daft urban myth for example. You'll know what I mean I'm sure.

(As one quick example off the top of my head, I've had to counter someone's argument by insisting that Nikon certainly would not supply a battery charger with our cameras that would over-charge our batteries ... and - to echo your general point above - we would certainly have learnt about it from a million camera owners by now if Nikon had done that!)

So yes, I take your point, and in my shaky defense I'll just say that I might have given too much weight for too long to my own 'insider techie suspicions' about the re-invented, marketing-focussed Microsoft that emerged around 2014/2015.  Maybe I let my disdain and disappointment for Microsoft's culture change and their demotion of technical credibility become too baked-in to my thinking?

As I've hinted in another thread somewhere, I've been yearning and hoping for a long long time for Microsoft to talk to us (their once proud techie community) clearly and openly, through something like a white paper, to explain why they're using such opaque telemetry (especially if it's "for all the right reasons ...").  I'm convinced that if Microsoft did this it could flatten and squash all these 'suspicions' and niggles ...  even my own(!).

So - coming back to the anti-Windows 10 biases that I am harboring, and that clearly a bunch of other folks are also harboring, given that about 18% of all Windows computers in Europe (up to March 2020) still run Windows 7 (see my Reference below) although that number is falling steadily ...

... I would blame Microsoft's refusal to be this open and technically transparent - especially to the technical press - as the main reason why so many people are still wary of Windows 10.  It seems bleeding obvious to me - but then I must also accept your general point Carlo, that the sky has not yet fallen, that the personal secrets of 200 million (or so?) Windows 10 Users are not flying openly around the internet, and that only a handful of court cases were ever launched against Microsoft for breaches in privacy or malpractice.

So yes, I'm doing a lot of self-reflection lately  but some 'stances' (biases?) are harder to shift than others.
Thank you for your intriguing and ironic nudge!

Reference:
Desktop Windows Version Market Share Europe (as in March 2020)
https://gs.statcounter.com/windows-version-market-share/desktop/europe

[greg]

I reluctantly upgraded to Win 10 a few years ago when it became clear that it was a far greater security risk to stay with an unsupported OS. Win 7 is dead except for situations where one is locked in due legacy software that only runs on it. For most software including Imatch, an internet connection is necessary for updates so Win 7 is a risk. As far as information tracking goes, there is no way to avoid it on any device today, just minimize as much as a person can. It's best to get over it and move ahead.

My vote is for Mario to not waste time on Win 7. Unless an easy compatible solution is available this can only lead to more constraints and greater complexity in the code base.

[mstief]

I don't understand the discussion.
I'm a system admin of some companies. I support more than 150 clients. All of them are on W10, most of them were upgraded from W7 to W10 - no problem...
W7 is dead. If you buy a new hardware - you can't use W7 - it's not supportet, there are no drivers...
If you belive to stay on your old W7 installation, you have to live with a lot of limitations: no support, no new software, unsolved security risks, ...
There was the same discussion with the end of XP.
Once again: W7 is dead like XP.

[plastikman]

Yes, leaving Windows 7 behind has my vote as well. I am normally very empathic to these types of causes but not now.

It is very simple:

• Windows 7 is not officially supported anymore and declared death
• The effort to keep it running is not worth the small % of users
• More headaches will come from it in the future, especially regarding security
• Windows 10 has proven itself
• If you are happy with outdated software for your OS, also accept outdated software (e.g. IMatch 2019 or IMatch 2020 last supported version)

If privacy is your only concern, there are many tools that can lock it down for like 90%. And if you don't have any trust in Microsoft, why use Windows to begin with? Linux is your friend.

[Mario]

Well, after working 3 days on it, I have back support for Windows 8 and 8.1.

(Skipping long and very sad story with tons of technical mumbo-jumbo, heart-breaking stories of failed attempts to figure out the problem, coffee abuse, tears, rants etc.)

Even for Windows 7, although I don't test that anymore. It may work, or it may not work on your box. Windows 7 is just too old.

[mastodon]

I am using Win10, but I really appreciate this kind of greast support!

[ColinIM]

I am using Win10, but I really appreciate this kind of greast support!

Yes!! As one of the few remaining Windows 7 users, I absolutely agree with you mastodon.
Thank you Mario, from me too.

(I had already made a new 'thank you' post above, before I'd spotted this update here from you Mario. But I won't apologize for duplicating my message in this case  )

[medgeek]

Windows 10 has 1 billion installations. 1000 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000 installations.

In British English, billion used to mean 10¹² but this is considered outdated. The Brits have come around to the American English meaning of billion as 10⁹.

It is true that there are on the order of 10⁹ installations of Windows 10 (but obviously not a trillion).