Simpler Menu Based Option to Combine Jpg+Raw images for thumbs and for viewer

[photomy]

I have home based IMatch 2017.  Currently this (subject above) can be done, but it is not easy as compared to other programs - especially for a new user.  Most of the other catalogs or viewing/culling software have a simple menu based on/off for catalog wide "Combine jpg and raw" into one thumbnail for files contained in the same folder with the same name.  Then an option lets you select which proxy image shows on top for viewing (probably for most, jpg) and which one is used for metadata changes.  The file extension, if shown in thumbnail window, would be the version used for metadata edits.

This is a common requirement primarily because IMatch  5 and most other viewing/culling/catalog programs do not show the edits correctly to the raw files.

The current Relations/Versions customization would stay the same for those used to doing it that way.

Currently I use jpg as visual proxy along with a filter always on to hide jpgs.  I do not like the appearance (layered affect - prefer clean simple look) of the version stacking nor the constant toggling every time I do new edits and add new jpg files for proxy.  This should be automatic in my opinion

Something to consider.  By the way I love the program and recommend it whenever I can.
Thanks.

[Arthur]

For normal Lightroom users without computer science knowledge, a wizard for this would certainly help. The target for the wizard would be to help mimic the lightroom's or capture one's library module without knowing a single peace of regex. The points you enumerated are what most of the users have to learn, but most of them don't necesseraly want to learn. So this could help to increase the user base.

[Jingo]

Curious - what is the benefit for you in keeping both RAW and JPG's cataloged in the program together?  I don't mean to be flip with that question... but only bring it up because I long ago decided to only catalog the exported JPG's from my RAW workflow and to not catalog the original RAW files.  The RAW files remain in my RAW editor's catalog (C1) with its edits intact... and the exported JPG is cataloged and used to view in IMatch.  This has many benefits including: Fast access to image files, Preview shows the edits (as you mentioned), single image to maintain, fast Metadata writeback (without the need for propagation).

If I ever did need to re-edit a RAW file, I can easily find it because my RAW folder hierarchy and file naming conventions are the same as my JPG files - they are just on a different drive volume.

[photomy]

Yes, I edit more than once, especially when preparing a file for printing or for website viewing which may have changes as to file dimensions, color space, etc.  All this needs to be done from the raw file.  All metadata such as keywords need to go into the raw file so that they can go into files created from the raw file.  The primary purpose of the catalog is to quickly find a file I need and then do something with it.  I do not want to hop over to another catalog to do my work. The raw file is the master that drives everything.  I have thought about trying your method but I know it would slow me down and get confusing.  The only purpose of having a buddy jpg file in the same folder is to show the actual current edit.  If I used dng files only, I might not need this process, however, I do most of my edits in Nikon software.  Not all of my raw files need editing of course.

[Jingo]

Thx for the answer... I guess if you are prone to re-editing the same RAW files over and over, then having them available in Imatch can be helpful.  In the past when I was using versioning and LR - I found it did not help much because even when I highlighted an image and tried to "Open in Lightroom" - it didn't take me directly to that image but instead just opened my LR catalog and brought me to the folder of images for that period... since most RAW editors have catalogs that maintain all the edits - I find it simple enough to just open the program via IMatch and then locate the image by year-month-filename and re-edit.  But again - I hardly ever go back to the same images once I have exported them after editing... if minor tweaks are needed - I'll just make them directly on the full resolution JPG and call it a day!

Enjoy!!

[sinus]

Yes, I edit more than once, especially when preparing a file for printing or for website viewing which may have changes as to file dimensions, color space, etc.  All this needs to be done from the raw file. 

Yep, I do it also this way.
Raw and versons together in IMatch. Also I like it simply, having all together, neatly side by side. 
Also in the good old analog-time I had the negatives and prints in the same place, take a folder, go to darkroom and go ahead. No need to open and search a second cupboard.

But of course, the way of Jingo is also a good way, I think, we have a lot of different workflows.

Photomy, since I do not know other DAMs good, I do not really know, what you mean with this feature request.
And this is simply because my lack of knowledge for English.

[photomy]

Jingo, I use Nikon View NX-i which, despite its criticisms received, actually works pretty well.  One click in IMatch quickly opens up the correct file for simple edits, and from there I can go to Capture NX-D for more involved edits.  I rarely go beyond basic raw adjustments, WB, contrast, exposure, saturation, etc.  NR, sharpening, cropping.

[Jingo]

Jingo, I use Nikon View NX-i which, despite its criticisms received, actually works pretty well.  One click in IMatch quickly opens up the correct file for simple edits, and from there I can go to Capture NX-D for more involved edits.  I rarely go beyond basic raw adjustments, WB, contrast, exposure, saturation, etc.  NR, sharpening, cropping.

Interesting.. I gave up on Nikon view and capture years ago when they fell behind (and when I started using other camera brands) but did really like the focus point indicator and the ability to write updated previews directly in the NEF files.  I didn't realize you could open directly to the RAW file for editing - a nice feature. 

[Mario]

Most of the other catalogs or viewing/culling software have a simple menu based on/off for catalog wide "Combine jpg and raw" into one thumbnail for files contained in the same folder with the same name. 

Can you give me an example of such an application?

What if the JPEG is not in the same folder as the RAW (not unusual) or does not have the same name as the RAW (also not too uncommon)?
I assume you ask for something like:

For all RAW formats supported by IMatch make a file relation rule:

1. f there is a JPG with exactly the same name as the RAW
2. and this JPG is in the same folder as the RAW
3. Make the JPEG a visual proxy of the RAW
4. Switch IMatch to always display the visual proxy
5. Make the JPEG a version stack proxy

This does surely not cover all common cases. No slightly modified file names. No sub-folders, ...
Probably it would be better to ask the user if he wants something like this and for which file formats?
When to ask the user? Extend the initial welcome dialog you see after creating a new database? Where IMatch asks you for buddy files?
Add a new dialog?
Monitor files added to the database and prompt the user when the first RAW is encountered that has also a JPEG?

[photomy]

Yes to all of your initial clarification questions.  It is for people that want to work with raw files and see what there edited raw files look like.  If I used DNG files, or the Nikon software from 3 + years ago which put everything inside the raw nef file including updated jpg edit, then I would not make this request.  The trend today with raw files seems to be away from doing any changes at all to the raw file.  However, this means that the latest jpg copy of the raw edit is external to the raw file.  One way, is to keep it in the same folder as the raw file with the same name (combine images) and show the jpg as the top image.

Software that has a menu button to quickly combine are:

Nikon software, Photomechanic, Zoner Photo Studio, Photo Supreme (not quite as easy), Daminion to a name a few that I have tried.  Some give choices as to which image shows on top.

Currently, I am using the file relations options with the jpg file as a visual only version - no metadata copying, etc.  Also, search for relation only in Master Folder - Specified Folder.  I keep the filter panel mostly ON with a saved custom filter named "JPG Vis Hide" derived from > Collections - Relations - JPG Vis - the name of my defined file relation, then click invert.  This works automatically for any relation - versions found of this type.  No need for stacking this way.

My point is it took me kind of a long time to figure this out because I am slow.  Another average joe might get frustrated and give up.

Something to think about.

[Mario]

My point is it took me kind of a long time to figure this out because I am slow.  Another average joe might get frustrated and give up.
Something to think about.

I always welcome comments, suggestions, requests in this form.
Making IMatch easier to use without spoiling/crippling its use for the experienced/demanding users is an always ongoing project.

A typical workflow for most users today is probably:

Edit the RAW in whatever RAW processor. The changes done to the RAW are virtual, only living in the RAW processor 'database'.
No other software, including IMatch, can see the changes you did to the file.

You may have 10 different virtual versions of the same file stored inside the RAW processor.
No other software can see these versions.

To persist one or more of the RAW versions. you have to export them to a standard image file, e.g., a JPEG or TIFF.
This file will then show up in IMatch - typically side-by-side with the RAW (or in a sub-folder).

Only after this point IMatch can do anything to change the appearance of the RAW - by using the generated version as the visual proxy and/or version stack proxy.

Embedding this functionality in the file version concept gives IMatch users a great deal of flexibility:

They are not limited to use the same name for the RAW
They can have multiple versions for a RAW
They can store the versions in sub-folders or even on a different drive
They can control which version they use to represent the RAW (if at all)
They can control which version they use for collapsed version stacks (if at all)

I'm not sure how to implement a dumbed down version of that...

A wizard? Asking questions? When to ask these questions?
It's a fact that new users trying out a software don't want to answer too many questions.
Even the required initial "Do you use buddy files, and for which formats" dialog is considered as a nuisance by many.
They want to give IMatch a roll, not answering irritating questions...

Later...a user wonders why his RAW files don't look in IMatch as they look in Lr or C1.

Now, what to do?
Would the user search the help? Using which keywords?
Would the user ask in the community? (only a part of the IMatch user base uses the community)
Would he send me an email?

I have been thinking about extending the initial "do you use buddy files" dialog to include a few more questions, like:

Do you work with RAW files?
If Yes, which formats (list of extensions)
Do you want to make JPEG files with the same name and in the same folder a visual proxy so that the RAW looks like the JPEG? (press F1 for more info)
...

[Mario]

I've made one change for this for the next release.

By default IMatch has now non-active file relations for Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji RAW formats.
+ The rules search for JPEG and DNG files in the same folder and with a file name based on the RAW.
+ These relations propagate nothing categories, collections, rating and label.
+ They are have both the version stack and visual proxy option enabled.

All a new user needs to do is to enable these rules, depending on the file format he/she uses.

[photomy]

Re change - thanks.  Make sure you keep the Link Expression simple such as:  ^{name}\.jpg$  This helps to assure only one file name can be used for the proxy image file that is a simple jpg of the exact same name as the master.  Also, the default search direction should be Master / Specified Folder Only for most users.  If they want it different (special folder) they can change it.

Personally, instead of version stack I use a filter that hides this special type of Relation Version jpg file (with help of Collections for the filter).  This filter stays on most of the time and seems to work a bit more "automatically" for all of my files than "Version Stack Visual".  The version stack requires selecting files and finding the version stack Toggle command and switching it on.

Of course the advantage of the version stack is it does not require the creation of a special filter that is on most of the time.  So this might be easier for users.

Okay one more small request related to this.  Maybe too late.  Is there a way to add in File Windows Edit panel a way to turn on or off the Version Stack "layered effect" for the thumbs when the version stack is toggled on ?  I like my thumbnails to be visually simple and clean. Some others might like this as well.

Thanks again,

- Tom

[Mario]

ink Expression simple such as:  ^{name}\.jpg$

To limiting, would not grab many common cases.

Is there a way to add in File Windows Edit panel a way to turn on or off the Version Stack "layered effect" for the thumbs when the version stack is toggled on ?  I like my thumbnails to be visually simple and clean. Some others might like this as well.

There is no option for that. I assume that most people want to be able to tell visually if they are looking at a stack of images or just one image.

[photomy]

ink Expression simple such as:  ^{name}\.jpg$

To limiting, would not grab many common cases.

In this special case, using a jpg as the cover image/proxy for latest edit of a raw file , the point is to be very limited to one file - a jpg with the same name as the master in the same folder.  I define link this way and it is the only way that will work correctly.  I do not want 2 or 3 other jpgs that are very close in file name.  These could be tied to the raw file with another version link.  Only 1 jpg can be selected as the cover/proxy image for the raw file.

[Mario]

Just change the regular expression that grabs the versions based on your individual needs.