(Settings to work with C1?) How to don't write dc\Subject?

[RobiWan]

Hi,

maybe I'm wrong - if yes correct me.
I have learned that IMatch works only with hierarchical keywords. I have only hierarchical keywords. my "old" XMP data came from C1. C1 writes Subject and hierarchical keywords.
Now if I write XMP data back in IMatch and C1 read this, then C1 imports both - "flat" and "hierarchical" keywords. Is there a way to set IMatch to don't write subject back and if possible remove TAG subject from existing XMP files?

[Mario]

XMP-dc Subject are the official XMP keywords. Most important.
The hierarchical keywords are stored inside the XMP-lr (Lightroom) namespace.
There are also keywords in the legacy IPTC keyword tag, if you deal with those.

IMatch manages only one set of keywords - the hierarchical keywords.
On import it maps flat and hierarchical keywords in your file into one super-set (importing XMP keywords, IPTC keywords and hierarchical keywords, if existing).
On export it maps back from this super-set to flat keywords.

How it maps hierarchical keywords into flat keywords is controlled via the Edit > Preferences > Metadata and (optinoally) your thesaurus (exclusion levels, group levels).
Please open E > P > Metadata and press <F1>.

I'm not sure what C1 does but it sounds like you have configured IMatch to write hierarchies into the flat keywords. Change that to make C1 happy.

In general: Fiddling with metadata in multiple applications can cause issues like this. I don't know how C1 deals with keywords, how it handles hierarchical keywords, if it handles the synchronization properly etc. See the manual of C1 for more info.

[RobiWan]

Ehm, not fiddling. My intention is - of course from now edit metadata only in IMatch but others should read the data.
And for switch from one system to another is often manually work necessary. This why I ask to find the best solution

/ I will check my Thesaurus settings /

Looking for any information about such topics in C1 documentation is pointless. There is a lot as it is or let it be

[Mario]

How IMatch flattens keywords (or writes hierarchies into the flat keywords) can be controlled vie Edit > Preferences > Metadata. Press <F1> there to get actual info and recommendations.
You'll need to find a way to make C1 correctly interprete the keywords (I don't know if they only look at XMP-dc:Subject or also at the hierarchical keywords).

[RobiWan]

I believe I do something wrong again Here a screenshots with my settings

Imatch writes this as example

exiftool -s -g pict0001.xmp -Subject -HierarchicalSubject
---- XMP ----
Subject                         : Moments Of Time, Herkunft, Europa, DE Deutschland, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Altenberge
HierarchicalSubject             : Moments Of Time, Moments Of Time|Herkunft, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland|Nordrhein-Westfalen, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland|Nordrhein-Westfalen|Altenberge

C1 reads and interpret both Subject and HierarchicalSubject

From Help I understand, that with my settings IMatch should write only "Altenberge" into Subject or not?

[Mario]

It writes the leaf keywords, as configured.

[RobiWan]

Hello,

I have changed the Subject - because I think Capture One Metadata handling is a bit different than all others

If I import my old Images into IMatch with XMP generated by C1 and then write XMP back C1 can read this and all is fine.
But if I have a new image and IMatch creates XMP file with keywords - C1 can read this too but they don's see or accept hierarchical structure. C1 see only the last keyword from my structure.
All settings from screenshot are without function here as long as thesaurus is to be used but how I have to change the settings in thesaurus

[Mario]

Maybe C1 does not support hierarchical keywords? Or do they expect that the hierarchy is somehow written into the flat keywords? I don't know how C1 handles keywords or whether or not they support MWG rules or the full XMP specification.

[RobiWan]

Now I have done some tests, Nordlicht too.

I will try to explain a bit what happens.

If I import XMP files generated by C1, Imatch can read them and the files are exported again and C1 can all entries read. This is because (see screenshot)
In this case writes Imatch

exiftool -s -g _dsc0001.xmp -Subject -HierarchicalSubject
---- XMP ----
Subject                              : DE Deutschland, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Leverkusen, Europa, Herkunft, Moments Of Time
HierarchicalSubject             : Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland|Nordrhein-Westfalen, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa|DE Deutschland|Nordrhein-Westfalen|Leverkusen, Moments Of Time|Herkunft|Europa, Moments Of Time|Herkunft, Moments Of Time

C1 shows into subject and (it think -but not sure) hierarchicalkeywords and then in own Keyword list and if the structure match then they build hierarchical keyword list (show screenshot).

For a new photos, where IMatch is XMP builder, IMatch creates with my settings this output

exiftool -s -g _rr_3925.xmp -Subject -HierarchicalSubject
---- XMP ----
Subject                         : Kegelrobbe, Meeressäuger, Moments Of Time, Säugetier, Tier, Umwelt
HierarchicalSubject             : Moments Of Time|Umwelt|Tier|Säugetier|Meeressäuger|Kegelrobbe

And here C1 can't work with (see screenshot). For C1 match only "Moments Of Time"

/I hope I writes all this right and correct/

[Mario]

IMatch produces the correct output. Hierarchical keywords go into hierarchical keywords and flattened versions (according to your settings) go into the flat keywords.
This is in accordance with the XMP/IPTCCore specification and the rules and recommendations of the Metadata Working Group. This schema is known to work well with all major applications and IMatch implements this since 2014.

I'm not sure what you want to tell me. That C1 is unable to handle clean keywords? Or hierarchies? Or that it needs some 'special C1 keyword' format and you want me to change IMatch to support the keywording schema C1 needs?

And why are there several threads about basically the same, e.g.

https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=7606.msg53062;topicseen#msg53062

[RobiWan]

IMatch produces the correct output.

I like to believe you. That's why I asked how other people working with C1 have the settings. Maybe there are settings with the C1 is clear that I just do not know now. If not I must think about different workflow how to work with IMatch and C1

[Mario]

If not I must think about different workflow how to work with IMatch and C1

Usually you use your RAW processor for processing RAW files. And your DAM for adding, editing and maintaining metadata.

[RobiWan]

If not I must think about different workflow how to work with IMatch and C1

Usually you use your RAW processor for processing RAW files. And your DAM for adding, editing and maintaining metadata.

Correct, but output files are produced by RAW editor not a DAM system.

[Jingo]

If not I must think about different workflow how to work with IMatch and C1

Usually you use your RAW processor for processing RAW files. And your DAM for adding, editing and maintaining metadata.

Correct, but output files are produced by RAW editor not a DAM system.

Yes - that is how most folks do things...  you either:

  a) Import RAW into IMatch, cull, rate, add keywords, etc...
  b) Open RAW file in C1, develop and Export a TIFF/JPG
  c) IMatch reads TIFF/JPG and versions them together with your RAW cascading metadata between the 2

OR

  a) Import RAW into C1, cull, develop and export a TIFF/JPG
  b) Import TIFF/JPG into IMatch, rate, add keywords

Not sure why folks want to do any sort of metadata edits in C1 if using IMatch... but that too can be done with varying levels of success.