Metadata synchronisation with DXO Photolab 6

[Stefanjan]

Now that Photolab 6 has much better meta data support, I'd appreciate thoughts on how users of imatch and Photolab 6 plan to use meta data in future.

Will you maintain the metadata just in imatch or will you update metadata in Photolab as well. What settings do you change? What things to avoid?

Up to now, I send a batch of photos to Photolab for processing.  Once processed I change the colour label to green in imatch. As I have to remember to write changes back in imatch, it would be good if I could make those changes write back immediately in Photolab after processing and exporting each image and then have those reflected in imatch.

[Mario]

Are you sure their metadata support is that much better?

Do they implement the latest IPTCCore and Ext requirements? Did they run the IPTC test suite and published the results?
For IMatch, see: https://www.iptc.org/photo-metadata-support-test-results/?swid1=imatch

Do they properly map between XMP and native metadata (EXIF, GPS) to not create two sets of data with different contents? During import and export? Do they retain custom XMP namespaces introduced by your camera or other software?

I have not yet seen any file with metadata embedded by PS6 or XMP sidecar files they create yet, so I cannot provide direct advice. If possible, to send me some original images and the output produced by Photolab to support email address.

I would do some really throughout testing and analysis of the data produced by the application, the supporting digests and linked fields written to XMP, metadata mapping results between native and XMP during import and export etc. before I would make a decision.

While metadata problems created by a software product may not show in the software product itself, they may manifest when you process the files in other software, now or in the future.

For my personal workflow, and whatever RAW processor / image editor I use (I use several), I add and edit metadata final only in IMatch. Because I trust ExifTool way more than any other software.

Adobe products are usually good, but they a) define the XMP standard and b) cater for millions of professionals working on complex cross-software and cross-platform projects where interoperability and metadata consistency is critical.

Metadata produced by other software I have used did not convince me so far. Your mileage may vary.

[sinus]

Are you sure their metadata support is that much better?

Do they implement the latest IPTCCore and Ext requirements? Did they run the IPTC test suite and published the results?
For IMatch, see: https://www.iptc.org/photo-metadata-support-test-results/?swid1=imatch

I do not use DXO Photolab 6, hence I do not know, really not.
What I know, that in the past I checked some software programs, that claimed to have implemented metadata very well were anything but, according to my personal tests.

But, hey, Mario, this iptc.org-page is great, we can even compare some software products, including Imatch. 
And IMatch, at first glance, does such a comparison very, very good.

Hmm, I hope, you have a link to this page on your own website, because this is a very good advertising for IMatch ... though I know, that the "normal user" has not a strong interesting for metadata (if he know, what this is). 

[Mario]

But, hey, Mario, this iptc.org-page is great, we can even compare some software products, including Imatch. 
And IMatch, at first glance, does such a comparison very, very good.

Yes. IMatch's results are excellent! Almost 100%. Except for one field which is not useful for the IMatch user base but would require a massive amount of work for IMatch and ExifTool to implement. Not worth it.

I link to the official test results from the IMatch page and also on the press kit page.
The IPTC compliance test results for IMatch are more relevant for professional and corporate users. Most 'normal' photographers don't have the know-how or strict requirements when working with IPTC metadata. Most only know headline, title, description, keywords and maybe some of the location and rights/copyright fields

[Jingo]

As a user of PhotoLab, I too am intrigued by the version 6 release mention of better meta support... but my workflow uses DxO for only RAW editing... all metadata is handled by IMatch and I've learned long ago to stick with this.  Since my RAW folder and filenames mirror 100% my Developed folder and filenames (just with a different drive name) - it is easy to locate the files if needed from IMatch.  I've found just dealing with processed files in IMatch to be a quick and easy process... and I know my metadata is handled correctly.

[JohnZeman]

I do the same as Andy (Jingo).

IMatch handles all metadata, the only metadata thing I'll do in PhotoLab is to click the little squiggly icon on the PhotoLab thumbnail so I can tell PhotoLab to read the latest metadata changes made by IMatch.  I never let PhotoLab write metadata back to the raw file's XMP sidecar file, only to its .dop sidecar file.

[Stefanjan]

Are you sure their metadata support is that much better?

I meant Photolab 6 better than Photolab 5, not better than imatch.

Given the responses so far, I will continue to use imatch for updating meta data.

Currently I export a processed jpeg image with #f after the file name and use versioning to link to the RAW master. I then change the label of the master to green to signify the file has been processed.

Jingo / John Zeman, I'm interested in what workflow you use to mark images as processed.

Mario, I will send you an image with the Photolab xmp file. The metadata seems to appear in imatch OK except the colour label.

[Stefanjan]

the only metadata thing I'll do in PhotoLab is to click the little squiggly icon on the PhotoLab thumbnail so I can tell PhotoLab to read the latest metadata changes made by IMatch.  I never let PhotoLab write metadata back to the raw file's XMP sidecar file, only to its .dop sidecar file.

Where is the squiggly icon on the Photolab thumbnail? I can't see one? I'm using Windows, perhaps this is a Mac thing.

[JohnZeman]

It's on Windows.

You have to make a change to the metadata of your raw image using IMatch first then make sure you write it back to the raw file (xmp) sidecar.

When PhotoLab detects that change in the metadata it'll show that little squiggly icon in the upper right corner of the thumbnail.

[JohnZeman]

Jingo / John Zeman, I'm interested in what workflow you use to mark images as processed.

In IMatch I use the

{File.MD.XMP::photoshop\Instructions\Instructions\0}

Tag to record the date I last processed that image along with the program(s) I used to do the processing.

Because I almost always use more than one program (PhotoLab, Affinity Photo, and usually the Nik Collection) I only record the last processed information in IMatch

[Mario]

Tip: If you want to record more than one entry in instructions, just change the Metadata Panel layout to show multiple rows for the tag and you have room for multiple entries.



And, just to mention it (because many users overlook it):the IMatch File History keeps track of all relevant events, including modifications done to files (with timestamp). You can add your own entries, e.g. recording the workflow that was applied to a file or similar.

See The History Panel for more info.

Adding some thesaurus entries for the Instructions tag and then recalling them in the Metadata Panel from the drop-down list is also a good way to do this.

[jch2103]

Now that Photolab 6 has much better meta data support, I'd appreciate thoughts on how users of imatch and Photolab 6 plan to use meta data in future.

Will you maintain the metadata just in imatch or will you update metadata in Photolab as well. What settings do you change? What things to avoid?

IM6 is better than IM5, but I prefer to do all metadata handing in one program (IM) to avoid any possible hiccups/problems. 

Regarding tracking what program(s) created output files from original raw files, PL6 and many other programs record information in {File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} (e.g., 'DxO PhotoLab 6.0'). There's no guarantee that some other program won't overwrite this, of course, but I've found it useful in keeping track of which program/version generated the output files. 

[JohnZeman]

John thanks for this.
I was not aware of that Software tag, and it does appear to be writable all right.

I'll have to explore the possibility of using that tag instead of the Instructions tag.  It won't matter if the tag's value gets overwritten by PhotoLab or any other program I'll use to process my images because I'll just overwrite it again with IMatch after the final image export.

[sinus]

And, just to mention it (because many users overlook it):the IMatch File History keeps track of all relevant events, including modifications done to files (with timestamp). You can add your own entries, e.g. recording the workflow that was applied to a file or similar.

See The History Panel for more info.

I can see in the File History above all when something has happened.
For example, if I change metadata, I can see that.
But I can't see which software changed it. Of course, it would be nice to see that too.

Well, in my case it would almost always be IMatch. 

[Mario]

But I can't see which software changed it. Of course, it would be nice to see that too.

When IMatch ingests a file (new or because Windows reports that it has changed), a history entry is created.
Theoretically, IMatch could look at the TIFF or EXIF software tag or the creator tool tag and then pick one (which?) and add that to the history.

But how often is something like that really needed?
Do you work with so many applications on your files that you lose track which application you have used to edit a file?
You can always look at the software or creator tool tags if this information is relevant for you, and you are probably more likely to tell which of the several tags which can be used contains the correct information.

Feel free to add a feature request if you think that this would be useful to have.
We have now "Likes" again (the litte thumbs up button in your posts) and that allows others to like your request.

[sinus]

But I can't see which software changed it. Of course, it would be nice to see that too.

When IMatch ingests a file (new or because Windows reports that it has changed), a history entry is created.
Theoretically, IMatch could look at the TIFF or EXIF software tag or the creator tool tag and then pick one (which?) and add that to the history.

But how often is something like that really needed?

Yep, as I wrote, in my case this would not mostly not bring me more useful information, because I use

- IMatch for Viewing/Metadata
- Photoshop for editing RAW and editing other images (jpg, tif...)

That's it for me. OK, if I think further, maybe for videos or other files it would be interesting.
But I use this too seldom, that it is worth a feature request. (though I would give it a thumb  )

[Stefanjan]

When PhotoLab detects that change in the metadata it'll show that little squiggly icon in the upper right corner of the thumbnail.

Thanks, got that now but I'm finding it a bit inconsistent. Doesn't seem to record colour labels and not always ratings. But otherwise seems to work OK. Interestingly I turned on "Synchronise meta data with XMP sidecar files" in Photolab and Photolab was updated immediately when I wrote the metadata back in Photolab (except colour labels).

As I don't want to break anything and colour labels was my main interest, I have turned of synchronisation until I know it's safe. 

I'll also not attempt to get metadata into Photolab until I know it's reliable.

[Mario]

The official location for labels is the XMP::xmp\Label\ Label tag in the XMP record. IMatch uses this, Adobe etc.

This is a free text field. IMatch imports whatever it finds and associates a color with it when there is a matching preset under Edit > Preferences > Metadata. This is why IMatch understands and colors labels written by a wide range of applications. And allows users to configure their own labels and colors if the applications they use store some special values.

All XMP-aware applications should read and write labels to/from this tag.
But sometimes applications have their "own" labels and don't bother for XMP support...

[JohnZeman]

Thanks, got that now but I'm finding it a bit inconsistent. Doesn't seem to record colour labels and not always ratings. 

Interesting.  PL6 detects ratings and label changes made by IMatch on my machine ok.

[jch2103]

Thanks, got that now but I'm finding it a bit inconsistent. Doesn't seem to record colour labels and not always ratings.

Interesting.  PL6 detects ratings and label changes made by IMatch on my machine ok.

One thing about the XMP color labels is that they're free-text entries (i.e., no standards for how they're used). Which means among other things that different languages may be used to describe colors, which may lead to unpredictable results. However, Rating is pretty standard so I don't know why that might be an issue unless it has to do with files being synced/written to. 

[digedag]

no guarantee that some other program won't overwrite this

Therefore, I am using three history tags from the XMP::xmpMM (XMP Media Management) group to keep my data safe.

After each completed processing, the following fields are filled:
- History Software Agent {File.MD.XMP::xmpMM\HistorySoftwareAgent\HistorySoftwareAgent\0}
- History When: {File.MD.XMP::xmpMM\HistoryWhen\HistoryWhen\0}
- History Action {File.MD.XMP::xmpMM\HistoryAction\HistoryAction\0}

With metadata templates you can partially automate these procedures. One should pay attention to the fact that here the field "Merge with existing contents" is checked. This allows you to write several entries, separated by semicolons, into the fields.

I have seen this procedure for the first time with photographs from national and state archives, as well as with photographs from photographer friends. All of them used Adobe Photoshop or Adobe Photoshop Elements. So it's quite possible that the Adobe software comes with this behavior out of the box. I don't know.

More information regarding xmpMM:History at Adobe itself here: XMP Media Management namespace
And regarding the ResourceEvent used there: ResourceEvent

Bernhard