History of software used (2): Software tags hijacked?

[digedag]

Hello,

I am still in the process of developing a workflow of my 'project' "Software History". I had started here: https://www.photools.com/community/index.php?topic=12318.msg87302#msg87302 but then fell over my own feet ... 

Metadata 2 and Tag Manager now have the default settings (except Metadata 2 'Apply timezone' = No). The requirements should now be met.

However, while searching for the appropriate software tag(s), I ran across a few oddities:
I have noticed that when I change the metadata and then write it back, sometimes the tags

Code Select Expand

{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0}
and/or

Code Select Expand

{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0}

are changed, but sometimes they are not. I could not discover a system behind it. Also it is not limited to single file formats, I have experienced it with all my formats so far (NEF, JPG, TIF, PSD, GIF).



The screenshot is about a week and a half old, but I did some more tests today with the same results.

Apart from the fact that I'm not getting further with my 'project' for the time being, I have certain fears of permanently losing my records regarding the software used by editing metadata (and writing back). 

Fortunately, all this has only happened in the test database at the moment, but since then I've been avoiding any write-back in my production database.
I hope that this is all a false alarm and that with your help this mystery can be solved quickly.

Thanks for your comments.

Bernhard

PS: I noticed this behavior only after the last update to IMatch 21.14.0.4

[Mario]

What is your question, precisely?
Metadata Import is not a tag, it's an internal database timestamp, recording the date and time of the last metadata import. A write-back always causes a metadata import.

IMatch sets the XMP creator tool when it is empty or updates it when it contains a photools.com entry from an older IMatch version.
ExifTool will map that back to other tags which are linked to the XMP tag, probably the tiff and exif tags.
From the XMP standard: tiff:Software: Software or firmware used to generate image. NOTE: This property is stored in XMP as xmp:CreatorTool.

[digedag]

Mario, thanks for the quick reply!

fears of permanently losing my records regarding the software used

My goal with 'Software History used' is to create a way to show which different programs (or their software versions) have been involved in the processing of the photos and when. Other users (e.g. JohnZeman) have done this before me.
(The screenshot is a very simple start of mine.)



The basis for a data-driven category should be one of the three software tags.

Code Select Expand

{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0}
or

Code Select Expand

{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0}
or

Code Select Expand

{File.MD.creatortool}


But if all three tags have the same content at the moment "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)" I won't know in the future which software was involved in these photos and when.

I hope that I have now made myself clearer.

Bernhard

[Mario]

IMatch only sets the XMP creator tool when it writes back and the tag is empty or contains the term photools.com.
ExifTool then maps it to the linked tags.

Please detail your workflow, provide a unmodified sample image etc.
Which version of IMatch are you using? I recall a bug fix some months ago, where this tag was accidentally written under some conditions, even when it was not empty. Typical metadata mess.

[digedag]

[...]
Which version of IMatch are you using?
[...]

after the last update to IMatch 21.14.0.4

[...]
I recall a bug fix some months ago, where this tag was accidentally written under some conditions, even when it was not empty.
[...]

It seems to me that he has resurfaced. 


I'll get back to you on the other points tomorrow!
Regards

Bernhard

[Mario]

I had a look and the check is still in place.
I need your precise workflow and the original image produced by your RAW processor.
BECAUSE, when it fills only the XMP tag, but not the corresponding EXIF tag, ExifTool will replace the XMP tag with the EXIF tag, wiping it. Not sure.

[digedag]

[...] the original image produced by your RAW processor.

I will email a sample file in a moment.

I need your precise workflow

There is no real "workflow", it's more try-and-error. By chance I came across the phenomenon and then examined randomly selected files for their changes in {File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} and {File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0} after writing back.

The sample file currently contains the following:
{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} = DxO PhotoLab 3.3
{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0} = DxO PhotoLab 3.3
{File.MD.creatortool} = photools.com IMatch 19.8.0.4 (Windows)

As soon as whatever tags are changed (I mostly use {File.MD.XMP::xmpRights\Marked\Marked\0}) the tag {File.MD.creatortool} is changed to "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)".
Exif tag and XMP tag remain on "DxO PhotoLab 3.3".

On the next provoked write-back, the Exif tag changes to "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)".
On repeated write-back, the XMP tag then also becomes "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)".

The result:
{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)
{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)
{File.MD.creatortool} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)

... and thus the reference to my RAW developer (DxO PhotoLab 3.3) is lost.

I hope this may help to narrow down the problem. Thank you very much in advance.

Bernhard

[jch2103]

I don't think I'm seeing what you are. I set up data-driven categories and a Metadata panel showing all three of these tags:

Exif::Main\305\Software\0
XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0
XMP::xmp\CreatorTool\CreatorTool\0

Here's what I see:
For NEF raw images, all three tags show the Nikon firmware for that particular camera (e.g., Ver.03.40).
For jpg and tiff images produced with DxO or other software, all three tags show the software that produced them (e.g., DxO PhotoLab 5.1.3 or Negative Lab Pro v2.3.0 or Sequator 1.6.0, etc.).

For most of my images I don't see a listing of IMatch (e.g., photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)) in the tags. Where I do see it is for images for which no other software has written anything in the tags. This includes images from my desktop scanner (ones not produced with VueScan, which does write a software version into the tags), Word/Excel documents, images downloaded from the web, some old NEFs that didn't write the firmware into all three tags (IM does show up in some tags for these), etc. Modifying the images in IM doesn't seem to change this for my images.

You may want to create data-driven categories (with the above tags) to look how the tags have been filled in your images.

[digedag]

Thank you, John, for you reply.

I don't think I'm seeing what you are.

Please let me explain ...

The sample file currently contains the following:
{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} = DxO PhotoLab 3.3
{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0} = DxO PhotoLab 3.3
{File.MD.creatortool} = photools.com IMatch 19.8.0.4 (Windows)

... with some screenshots:

On the next provoked write-back, the Exif tag changes to "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)".

On repeated write-back, the XMP tag then also becomes "photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)".

That's The result I wrote

{File.MD.Exif::Main\305\Software\0} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)
{File.MD.XMP::tiff\Software\Software\0} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)
{File.MD.creatortool} = photools.com IMatch 21.14.0.4 (Windows)

For the second part of my answer I still need some screenshots, but I can insert max. five per reply. I will open another one for this.

Bernhard

[digedag]

Continued from above.

[...]
Here's what I see:
For NEF raw images, all three tags show the Nikon firmware for that particular camera (e.g., Ver.03.40).
[...]

Sometimes with me too:




But sometimes not:

[...]
For jpg and tiff images produced with DxO or other software, all three tags show the software that produced them (e.g., DxO PhotoLab 5.1.3 or Negative Lab Pro v2.3.0 or Sequator 1.6.0, etc.).
[...]

Likewise here:




Or not:

You may want to create data-driven categories (with the above tags) [...]

In the last few weeks I have experimented with it a lot. It was only with the help of the data-driven categories that I came across the phenomenon.

Mario is still investigating the matter. Let's see what comes out of it.
But I have complete confidence in him!

However, I would be very interested to know if other users have experienced similar things. - Thanks advance for your experience.

Bernhard

[jch2103]

Even with repeated write-backs, I'm not seeing the same behavior as you are. Must be something different in our setup or hardware environment?

(Which tag do you change to force writeback?)

[digedag]

John, thanks again for looking into this! 

Even with repeated write-backs, I'm not seeing the same behavior as you are.

As I wrote:

[...] sometimes the tags [...] are changed, but sometimes they are not. I could not discover a system behind it. [...]

Must be something different in our setup ...

Most of the IMatch settings are default.

... or hardware environment?

Nothing exotic, I think!     Any details needed?

(Which tag do you change to force writeback?)

As posted above:

[...] (I mostly use {File.MD.XMP::xmpRights\Marked\Marked\0}) [...]

It was just the easiest way, a simple "click". But every change of another tag should bring the same result.

Thanks again, John, for giving your time to this (my) problem. 
Very appreciated!

Bernhard

[Mario]

De issue has been resolved. IMatch works correctly.
DxO fills the tiff:Software tag but not the official xmp:CreatorTool tag, which is why IMatch fills it (because it is empty) and writing back two times then synchronizes the data written by IMatch into the EXIF (first write-back) and also the TIFF-Tag (second write-back). This is how mapping XMP->EXIF during write-back and EXIF->XMP during read works.

According to the official XMP documentation:

tiff:Software Software or firmware used to generate image. NOTE: This property is stored in XMP as xmp:CreatorTool.

I interpret this (and this is how it's handled by most software) that the xmp:CreatorTool is the correct tag to fill. DxO should fill it instead of the TIFF tag, or, better, both with the same contents.
IMatch only sets xmp:CreatorTool when it is empty or updates it with the current IMatch version when the tag was already filled by IMatch.