How to keep IMatch and LR in sync when renaming files?

[hro]

I am trying to rename a number of files.
If I use the renamer in IMatch, the files have to be re-imported into LR and I loose my edit work in LR.
If I use the renamer in LR, the files have to be re-imported into IMatch and I loose my category assignments.

Any hot ideas/workflows how others accomplish this?

Thanks. Hartmut.

[Lord_Helmchen]

You could configure LR to write information also automatically into XMP side car files. If you do so and then rename your photos, IM will also rename buddy XMP files.

Then import photos again in LR. This at least works with development settings. As I don't use LR as database, I don't know if this also works there.

Just try with a test folder.

[Ferdinand]

I don't see a way to keep IM & LR in sync when renaming files.  In what I would do in general with new files is only import into one application until the file names are settled and only then import into the other application.  But it sounds like you're dealing with some existing files.

IMatch places some of its information in XMP whereas LR places all of its into in XMP.  So it seems simplest and safest to rename in IMatch and reimport into LR, since LR can recover its settings from XMP.  Of course this means making sure that LR has its information written to the sidecars, and not stored in the LR catalog. 

There are a few other catches in using LR with IMatch.  You need to ensure that your metadata2 file format preferences are consistent with LR.  You also need to work with only one application at a time, make sure that it has written to XMP, then switch to the other program and refresh XMP.  Never work in both simultaneously.

[hro]

Hi guys, thanks for your insights.

Correct, I am trying to rename existing files. I scanned a few thousand slides (great memories from the past), but didn't pay attention how I would want to name them.

I manage all the metadata in IMatch, and only use LR to develop, i.e. I'd really only like to retain the develop settings. Some of these slides have been adjusted quite heavily.

I will certainly try Lord_Helmchen's suggestion of creating XMP buddy files. I hope LR stores the development settings in XMP files this way. And if I get IMatch to rename the file + buddy file, and then re-import into LR I should have my development settings recovered.

I will post back my findings.

[hro]

So, I managed to create an acceptable workflow.

I cannot create sidecar files in LR, as I am working with TIFF files in this case. LR only creates buddy files for raw files. I changed LR preferences to save XMP metadata in the file (this includes develop settings).

When I rename the files now in IMatch, I can re-import them in LR and the development settings are retained, even all the snapshots I created.

There is only one downside, in that the metadata panel in Imatch scrolls incredibly slow, as it renders all development settings in the panel (XMP:other tag, Saved Settings). So, I guess I have to play now with the metadata panel configuration that the development settings are not displayed.

Does someone have a better workflow idea?

[Ferdinand]

There is only one downside, in that the metadata panel in Imatch scrolls incredibly slow, as it renders all development settings in the panel (XMP:other tag, Saved Settings). So, I guess I have to play now with the metadata panel configuration that the development settings are not displayed.

Which version of IMatch 5 are you working with?  Since 5.2.8 (I think) you can elect not to import these tags into the database.  I thought the default was not to import them, although since I've edited my settings I can't be sure.  You want to disable the Photoshop Camera Raw namespace.

[Mario]

You are trying to manage the same set of files in both LR and IMatch. Which usually works OK, unless you move/rename files in one of both applications. You should avoid this if possible.

If you really need to rename files in LR, you can use the Relocate command in IMatch afterwards to tell IMatch the new name of the file. DO NOT just rescan the folder in IMatch, because this will remove the "old" file (because IMatch cannot longer find it in the file system) and bring the file with the new name into the database as a new file. You will lose all metadata, categories and other information that way.

Right-click the file and chose Relocate from the Additional Commands sub-menu. Enter the new name / location of the file. IMatch then updates the file system data for the file in the database, but all associated information will be retained.

I would advise against forcing XMP sidecars for file formats which are supposed to contained embedded XMP data. Although IMatch is flexible enough to handle this, not all applications are. LR and other Adobe software definitely is not. You may end up with multiple competing XMP records for the same file, which is to be avoided.

There is only one downside, in that the metadata panel in Imatch scrolls incredibly slow, as it renders all development settings in the panel (XMP:other tag, Saved Settings). So, I guess I have to play now with the metadata panel configuration that the development settings are not displayed.

LR and other Adobe software writes tons of stuff into the XMP record. Literally. Thousands of metadata fields. Depending on how you have configured LR/PS, every brush stroke (!) is recorded in the XMP:crs namespace or XMP-lr namespaces. LR can create megabytes of XMP data.  And most of it is junk, only useful for LR. Adobe should have done a clever thing and keep this data out of XMP. But Adobe does at it pleases and we poor users have to somehow get along...

I suggest you use the Tag Manager in IMatch (Edit > Preferences > Metadata 2) to limit the information you let IMatch imports from these namespaces. This will keep the junk out of your database and when you use the Metadata Panel in Browser mode you will see a lot less data. And IMatch will also be able to perform faster.

[hro]

There is only one downside, in that the metadata panel in Imatch scrolls incredibly slow, as it renders all development settings in the panel (XMP:other tag, Saved Settings). So, I guess I have to play now with the metadata panel configuration that the development settings are not displayed.

Which version of IMatch 5 are you working with?  Since 5.2.8 (I think) you can elect not to import these tags into the database.  I thought the default was not to import them, although since I've edited my settings I can't be sure.  You want to disable the Photoshop Camera Raw namespace.

Ferdinand, I am using 5.2.18. I also thought the default was not to import them. I tried hard to find these tags in the tag editor to switch them off, but couldn't find them. In the Metadata panel they appear under "XMP::other Saved Settings". Fundamentally, they contain all the LR develop settings, including all snapshots taken, etc.

I have not changed any of the default settings in the tag editor since it was released, so I assume they will be ingested by default if someone chooses to save develop settings in LR as I did in my tests.

Mario, it may be useful to add a warning to the tag editor help that even with the default settings IMatch may ingest a huge amount of XMP data. In my case it brought the Metadata Panel to a crawl.

Mario, in response to your comments. Yes, I'd like to rename a bunch of files (some 1000 slides I scanned previously). I don't want to rename in LR, rather in IMatch as all the metadata is managed there. I only use LR for development, but the development settings are lost if I reload them after renaming. Yes, I can relocate files in both applications, but this can only be done on a file by file basis (I lthink), which is too tedious. That's the reason I tried to test a few workflows. I am also not using sidecar files, but save the LR develop settings in the file.

So, I guess my options are:
- Rename files in LR, and manually relocate each file in IM - works, but tedious
- Rename files in IM, and manually relocate each file in LR - same as above
- Save develop settings in file in LR, rename in IM, re-import in LR - IM ingests tons of XMP data (need to find a way to avoid this)

Do I miss anything here?

[Mario]

Mario, it may be useful to add a warning to the tag editor help that even with the default settings IMatch may ingest a huge amount of XMP data. In my case it brought the Metadata Panel to a crawl.

1. When you use the Browser layout of the Metadata Panel, IMatch has to display all the data it has cached for your file. This layout is for testing purposes only, not for everyday use. Setup your own layout or one of the pre-defined layouts which show only relevant data.

2. IMatch by default excludes the XMP:crs namespace (camera RAW settings) and most of the XMP-lr namespace (Lightroom). Now Adobe has decided to stuff lots of data into the aptly named XMP:other namespace. How should I know about this? How can I keep track of this? And should I really waste my time trying to figure out what Adobe has come up with in all their latest products to f'k everything up again? I don't think so. Just disable the group containing the data you don't want to have in your database and let IMatch purge the stuff during the next diagnosis. The next update or PS, LR, InDesign or whatever you use may put the same data into another namespace. Or pollute already existing namespaces. Adobe does whatever they please.

Send an email to Adobe, asking them which private namespaces they allocate in XMP and for which purpose. If you get a list, let me know. With the Tag Manager I gave you the tools to deal with the data flood Adobe creates in XMP. I still wonder why Adobe gets away with stuffing megabytes of useless junk into XMP. Data like "user moved brush X from a to b" should really go into a database or an external file, but not in XMP.

[sinus]

I am trying to rename a number of files.
If I use the renamer in IMatch, the files have to be re-imported into LR and I loose my edit work in LR.
If I use the renamer in LR, the files have to be re-imported into IMatch and I loose my category assignments.

Any hot ideas/workflows how others accomplish this?

Thanks. Hartmut.

Hartmut,
since I have to deal (also) with some troubles with a damaged db of me, I think about some "tricks" to deal with it.
One idea (what I used sometimes in IM3) could work, specialy if you have NOT a lot of categories.

Here it is one idea (I thought about this idea for my collections):

Say, you have 3 categories, what you want not loose after renaming.

Cat 1
Cat 2
Cat 3

Go in Cat 1 and select all files to rename. Choose a metadata - field, what is empty and fill in "Cat 1".
Then the same with Cat 2 and 3.

You will end with all files, having the real cats AND also written this in meta-fields.

Hence you could store the metas now and you can now rename theses fields in LR.
Re-Import the files in IMatch, the files will have no cats.

Find all files with the meta-field  "Cat 1", and give all these files the real Cat 1.
And so on...

At then end you can delete the meta-fields again.

I have written this for me to Mario (to get some files with pins), I do not know, if this is a good idea, but I should work.
Except you have 100 cats for one field, than it is a bit akward.

[hro]

2. IMatch by default excludes the XMP:crs namespace (camera RAW settings) and most of the XMP-lr namespace (Lightroom). Now Adobe has decided to stuff lots of data into the aptly named XMP:other namespace. How should I know about this? How can I keep track of this? And should I really waste my time trying to figure out what Adobe has come up with in all their latest products to f'k everything up again? I don't think so. Just disable the group containing the data you don't want to have in your database and let IMatch purge the stuff during the next diagnosis. The next update or PS, LR, InDesign or whatever you use may put the same data into another namespace. Or pollute already existing namespaces. Adobe does whatever they please.

Although we are getting a bit off topic here, I completely agree with your notion of what Adobe are doing. I know it is hard to avoid this subject whenever one needs to talk about XMP.

In this post, I merely want to identify an acceptable workflow to rename some files. I see IMatch as my 'master', containing all metadata, and LR as a 'slave' which I only use for image edits. I decided I definitely want to rename the files in IMatch and find an acceptable way to retain my develop settings in LR. I used Nikon Capture in the past which stores the develop settings in the raw + tif files, probably in a far less intrusive way than LR does.

With my testing so far I wanted to point out Mario, that, although I use the default tag settings as they came with your release, IMatch did still ingest the enormous amount of LR develop nformation in the XMP::other namespace tag. I completely understand there is nothing you can really do but warning users that a situation like this can easily occur and that they should very carefully check the tag settings when working with other applications.

[hro]

Hartmut,
since I have to deal (also) with some troubles with a damaged db of me, I think about some "tricks" to deal with it.
One idea (what I used sometimes in IM3) could work, specialy if you have NOT a lot of categories.

Here it is one idea (I thought about this idea for my collections):

Say, you have 3 categories, what you want not loose after renaming.

Cat 1
Cat 2
Cat 3

Go in Cat 1 and select all files to rename. Choose a metadata - field, what is empty and fill in "Cat 1".
Then the same with Cat 2 and 3.

You will end with all files, having the real cats AND also written this in meta-fields.

Hence you could store the metas now and you can now rename theses fields in LR.
Re-Import the files in IMatch, the files will have no cats.

Find all files with the meta-field  "Cat 1", and give all these files the real Cat 1.
And so on...

At then end you can delete the meta-fields again.

I have written this for me to Mario (to get some files with pins), I do not know, if this is a good idea, but I should work.
Except you have 100 cats for one field, than it is a bit akward.

Hi Markus,

Thanks very much for your suggestions. I understand your approach but think it could become tedious. I don't have too many categories, but still on average around 7 or 8.

I decided I will definitely rename the files in IM, saving me all the troubles with re-categorising, and to find a workable way of retaining develop settings in LR. As you see above, one way is to store the settings in the files, which is not really a good idea.

Last thing, good luck with your database repair. I hope you get it all fixed before Christmas 

[weixing]

Hi,
   I also edit my photo in LR4 and manage them in IMatch. I also don't like to have so many xmp files in my folders, so what I do is I convert them to dng and import(add) them to LR4 for editing. LR store all the editing info in the dng files, so no xmp files is created and the result of editing is also shown in IMatch. When renaming my photos, I just remove them from LR and use IMatch to rename, so no problem. Another advantage is that you can use your older version of LR to edit photos of newer camera by convert it into DNG using the free Adobe DNG converter.

   By the way, I still keep my RAW files in a child folders and use versioning to associate them with the dng files.

   Have a nice day.

[Mario]

I have changed the defaults for the Tag Manager. You can now explicitly disable some (proprietary) names spaces, including AdobeAlbum, Extensis, MicrosoftPhoto, and also XMP:other. This allows you to get rid of the unwanted data. Will work in 5.3.2 next year.

[Aubrey]

I hope you are building in a small upgrade fee going from 5.2 to 5.3

Aubrey.

[Mario]

I hope you are building in a small upgrade fee going from 5.2 to 5.3
Aubrey.

Nope. IMatch 5 is now barely 6 months old, and I'm not greedy 

But I will definitely not wait 8 years again before I charge an upgrade fee.
Probably when we reach the 5.5 - I have some larger new features planned for that version.

[Mario]

I have changed the defaults for the Tag Manager. You can now explicitly disable some (proprietary) names spaces, including AdobeAlbum, Extensis, MicrosoftPhoto, and also XMP:other. This allows you to get rid of the unwanted data. Will work in 5.3.2 next year.

The XMP::other tag group is not directly 'known' to ExifTool. The namespace shows up in your database when IMatch encounters a file containing tags labeled as XMP::other. IMatch then adds this group and the tags contained in it to your database. This is how IMatch deals with all unknown tags and groups. Many vendors add proprietary data into custom namespaces in XMP. But why Adobe put so much LR-specific settings and protocol data into a namespace named XMP::other escapes me. They should at least have chosen a decent name for it.