HEIF/HEIC Files

[nacho02]

Hello,

to my surprise, my new iPhone now offers me the choice of JPG or HEIC files. As far as I can tell, the new format offers a number of advantages, so it actually makes sense to use it.

BUT: except Macs (and only the new ones), noone else can actually display these files :-(

Mario.. can you say something about Codec / format support for these files?

Much appreciated. Thanks!

Ignacio

Administrative Note: IMatch 2019 supports for HEIC/HEIF files (including reading/writing metadata) based on the Windows 10 HEIC/HEIF codec.

[Jingo]

As far as I know - there are no software apps that currently display this .. only via IOS 11 on the device can you see these files.  Recommendations are to just convert the files to the "inferior" JPG format if you wish to view them...

[nacho02]

Hi Jingo,
yes, you are right. I am hoping that Mario might reply something along the lines of "I'm looking into this for the next version..". For the moment I am sticking to using JPGs, but it's a pity to have to.

I guess it's a matter of time before we see codecs and applications being able to display them.

Thanks.

[Mario]

Mario.. can you say something about Codec / format support for these files?

1. Do not believe all the marketing tells you.
2. There is currently no support for this built-into Windows.
3. None of the 3rd party image libraries I use for IMatch supports it.
4. This is a super-complicated container image format. I already foresee the same problems we today have with video container formats - no application handles all.
5. As a side note: the last JPEG contenders were JPEG2000 (nobody uses this anymore) or Google's WebP (nobody uses that anymore).
6. FFMPEG includes support for the required codec, but does not ship it for license and copyright reasons. You need to build it yourself if you want it with HEIF codec support. This indicates that this will be yet another one of the patent war nightmares. The MPEG also has a hand in this, which means usually legal issues and payments.

The file format was created by Nokia and is covered in patents. Codecs used for the format are patented by Nokia and other companies.

I'm not sure about the license statement: https://github.com/nokiatech/heif/blob/master/LICENSE.TXT

For me this reads as if this can only be used for non-commercial and research use (IMatch is considered commercial).
Codec patents are excluded explicitly. This is utter nonsense. If I would have to pay license fees or royalties to Nokia and others in order to read and render HEIF images, this would be a no-go.
Apple can afford that, of course.

Even if Apple hypes this, I would not store my images in a format that is covered in so many patents and potential legal issues. Where is the sense in that? This only plays in the hands of the big software houses which can afford legal departments and annual royalty payments to Nokia, the MPEG and other bodies. If IMatch would be freeware I probably could include support for this format. Or if I would have pockets as deep as Apple or Adobe. In short: I'll wait until the dust settles and somebody knows how to deal with all this. Maybe Microsoft includes support for it in a future Windows version.

[sinus]

Hello,

to my surprise, my new iPhone now offers me the choice of JPG or HEIC files. As far as I can tell, the new format offers a number of advantages, so it actually makes sense to use it.

BUT: except Macs (and only the new ones), noone else can actually display these files :-(

Mario.. can you say something about Codec / format support for these files?

Much appreciated. Thanks!

Ignacio

Typically Apple. They produce really nice things, hardware and software.
But build an own, closed world.
In this world everything is fine and works great (well, mostly).

But outside this world some stuff of them creates problems.

Nowadays I would go to jpg. If this new container has success you can change later.
And the quality, what they are show on some websites, you will normally not see on paper or on screen.
Except you make huge sections of an image.

[Jingo]

Agree... my family has already turned this off... JPG's are universal... HEIC - more ways Apple wants to control you... no  thank  you...

However - to the majority of folks - this will be a non issue.  Take a photo, share on facebook, done.  Can't imagine many folks that use an iphone even KNOW what an HEIC is (or cares).. all they hear is "IOS 11 photos take up less space" and they cheer!  Only advanced users (smaller subset) will bemoan the fact that these photos are meaningless outside your phone and you need to export to JPG to see them.

[Mario]

Does FB, Instragram, PInterest etc. accept HEIF files yet? I doubt it. I think Apple converts them to JPEG before uploading

Modern phones have rarely less than 16GB internal storage and, if you have a proper phone, you can also add 32, 86 or 128 GB via an SD card. Or upload into the cloud.

Saving up to (!) 40% of space by using HEIC instead of JPEG is actually not that important. The other advantages of HEIF may or may not affect larger audiences. Future will tell.

If I would have to pay money to Nokia and other patent holders in order to use HEIF files in IMatch, this will only be available with a fee-based plug-in. a) because I need to recover the cost and b) I would have to report the number of users anyway to the patent holders for royalty calculations.

[nacho02]

Thank you all for the discussion.

Dropbox supports these files (synchronisation and display). But that's about it. Google Photos apparently as well. OneDrive converts them prior to the upload.

https://www.dropbox.com/help/photos-videos/ios-formats
(in German)

As for comments regarding patents and support by other apps, the main thing is going to be "wait and see" what the markets do.

In the meantime.. long live the JPG!

[Mario]

Can somebody sent me some sample HEIC files to my support email?

Apparently only the latest Apple phones create them so far, none of the imaging products I use can create HEIC files - except FFMPEG when I download and compile it myself (patent / license issue).

Since the format was developed by the MPEG, I have doubts that it will be free to use in commercial or shareware applications. Bad news.
To deal with the MPEG and to get a license you usually need a specialized lawyer - who costs more than I make from IMatch.

From the http://jpgtoheif.com/ online converter web site:

HEIF and HEVC are extensively covered by patents, which means there could be legal implications to implementing HEIF support, particularly in paid software or a hardware product.

This is usually the only reason for the MPEG group to get involved in video or image file formats - to generate royalty payments.

The Wikipedia article has more details. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format

Seems like Apple wants to force their users to switch from a free, patent-free format like JPEG to a parent-ridden non-free license-based format. Bad news for everybody.

[loweskid]

Apparently, the latest update of Photoshop CC - Photoshop 2018 - (released yesterday I think) can open but not save* HEIF files, and only on a MAC.

This video touches on it at just over one minute in.

https://www.lynda.com/Photoshop-tutorials/Photoshop-CC-marches/633851/674339-4.html

* Probably means it can't be saved in HEIF but can be saved in other formats.

[Mario]

Adobe can of course pay all royalties to the MPEG. And they have a legal department with several hundred employees, so they can also figure out all the rules and requirements imposed by the MPEG.  Besides, if this is Mac-only so far, Adobe can probably rely on the built-in support in iOS / MacOs for HEIF.

They only way I can see for IMatch supporting this patent-ridden format:

a) Microsoft adds support for it into Windows. Apple did this, let's hope MS does it to.

b) A WIC codec (may still require annual royalty payments by any software that uses it...)

c) A freeware like FFMPEG which can extract the HEIF into a, for example, JPEG and then IMatch uses that.
I do that for video files already. For IMatch, a preview is good enough. IMatch is no image editor.

In general, I try to avid proprietary or patented file formats, or file formats which require payments to the MPEG or any other company. In the long run, this is always bad.

[Jingo]

Yes.. the MAC OS has HEIF support baked in... so all these companies are taking advantage of that - hence why this is a MAC only feature.   Pixelmator added support earlier this month as well... its a small company but MAC only so they must be using the OS as well.

[Mario]

Yes, Apple has this integrated.
The Mac has something like the WIC Standard on Windows. But, unlike under Windows, no company would dare to not support it.

On Windows, the actually smart idea of WIC codecs was undermined and invalidated by companies like Canon and Nikon which no longer deliver their own WIC codecs - cost cutting to save a few thousand dollars per year.

One IMatch user recently wrote to Canon Germany, asking about a WIC codec. Since WIC is the standard on Windows and surely a big vendor like Canon can afford to pay a programmer a few thousand dollars to implement a WIC codec. For the benefit of all people who give Canon money and buy their gear.

But nooo - Canon told him to either a) Use the (crappy) Canon software, b) Use Adobe software or c) buy some third party WIC codec. And that after he spent several thousand dollars on Canon bodies and lenses. Apparently they are even unwilling or unable to assist Microsoft with the built-in Windows WIC codec for CRW / CR2, which unfortunately does not support all Canon models.

But looking at the late official Canon software development kit, not even Canon supports image files created with cameras older than 5, 6 years anymore. Some models have just been dropped from the SDK. This looks not too well for people attempting to create an archive for images older than 5 or 10 years...but people apparently let Nikon and Canon get away with it. If nobody would buy a camera for which there is no WIC support in Windows, all camera vendors would rush WIC codecs out in two weeks.

[Jingo]

Another reason to export a JPG from your RAW images... and version all you want.   

[Mario]

The more I read about HEIC/HEIF, the more this becomes another of those nightmarish patent minefields.
Nokia has patents linked to HEIC/HEIF, Apple probably has (they just settled a patent war with Nokia about this), the MPEG has patents for the encoders used for HEIF/HEIC etc.

Pretty bad. Because patents always means financial obligations and this means that this format will have a hard time to become accepted by camera vendors, browser vendors, Linux, Windows etc. Everybody would have to deal with the patents and the rats tail linked to it, annual royalty payments to the MPEG and more. This means yet another fractionated market.

Why Apple makes this the default and then adds implicit conversion for features like sending emails escapes me. On the other hand, looking at the money Apple charges for a simple 64GB memory extension, things become more clear.

Since HEIF is a container format which can contain images, video, audio, metadata in one or even multiple variants and probably your breakfast, too, we're facing yet another "Supports HEIF, at least some variants..." situation - like WebP, WebV, MP4, AVI, MTS, ... Aarrgh.

Frankly, all companies should sit together and agree on a format that is actually beneficial for users. Not just for corporations trying to lock-in customers, grab market share, win patent wars and big law companies making a solid profit from all that...

I really start to despise software patents related to file formats. This cannot be good for users.
Users need reliable, patent-free, cross-platform, widely supported and long-lived file formats to store images, video and audio. Just think 10 years into the future....   

[Koryantii]

What is the best way to view iPhone HEIC photos on Windows?

[Jingo]

My understanding is ... you cannot without first converting them to JPG or buying specific editing software that will recognize the format.  My advice - stick with JPG or be prepared to convert to JPG upon moving your files to your PC.  As Mario said... another Apple minefield.. if you aren't locked into their OS... good luck!

This article might help... though I cannot vouch for the source: https://blog.fonepaw.com/what-open-heic-heif.html

[nacho02]

Check this out.. apparently native support for HEIC files.

CopyTrans brings native HEIC support to Windows with free plugin

https://www.dpreview.com/news/8881896793/copytrans-brings-native-heic-support-to-windows-with-free-plugin

Disclaimer. I have not tested it yet.

Regards

[jch2103]

An FYI: https://www.dpreview.com/news/3119308842/android-p-brings-heif-and-multi-camera-support-to-pixel-devices

Google will be adding HEIF support to its newest phones on the Android P release.

[Mario]

To Pixel devices. And probably a few high-end smart phones which will get the latest Android version.
And Google can surely afford the lawyers to deal with all the patent holders of HEIF, and the annual patent fees. I cannot.

I wonder why users willingly lock their images into a patent-ridden and totally unfree file format...

[Jingo]

To Pixel devices. And probably a few high-end smart phones which will get the latest Android version.
And Google can surely afford the lawyers to deal with all the patent holders of HEIF, and the annual patent fees. I cannot.

I wonder why users willingly lock their images into a patent-ridden and totally unfree file format...

Because 98% of iPhone users don't know what HEIF even means... they just hear "it takes up less room on your phone" and go for it!  As mentioned, when I was supporting my old DamRoundup.com website and reviewing DAM packages, I queried users about what they do with their cell phone photos and how they organize them, etc... I got an almost 100% response of: "I leave them on the phone" and "I don't organize them".

[Carlo Didier]

... almost 100% response of: "I leave them on the ..." and "I don't organize them".

I think that's not only for phone users 

[Mario]

Most users today are truly just "users". No deeper understanding of the technology that shapes and in some areas even controls their lives...sad 

[Jingo]

... almost 100% response of: "I leave them on the ..." and "I don't organize them".

I think that's not only for phone users 

Indeed... sadly - I think you are correct!

[Mario]

Microsoft announced that they plan to add support for HEIC/HEIF files to (one of) the next Windows 10 release.

See my FB post for more info: https://www.facebook.com/photools/

[Mario]

IMatch 2018.8.2 will includes updated support for HEIF/HEIC images, based on the Microsoft HEIC WIC codec available in Windows 10.

[nacho02]

Bravo!!

Thank you 

[royhuang]

iMatch 2018.8.2 will includes updated support for HEIF/HEIC images, based on the Microsoft HEIC WIC codec available in Windows 10.

Using v19.2.0.4, reading iPhone HEIC-formatted photos crashes when being read into a new database (I'm a new user so was trying to build my first database of ~80K photos (jpg, arw, heic).  I was able to reproduce the error after trying to create the database twice (many hours!) and then tried to create a database solely with iPhone HEIC photos in a folder.

Note: iMatch crashed both before I installed the Microsoft Windows "HEIF Image Extensions" app from the Microsoft Store and ***after*** as well (did a reboot too after installing that).

Has anyone encountered the same?    Thanks in advance.

[Mario]

Did IMatch display the crash handler dialog ?

The Debug Dump File

If you don't see this dialog (may take a while, depending on how long Windows needs to dump the memory to file) the problem happened 'outside' of IMatch, in a WIC codec, driver, Windows component etc. That it becomes much harder to analyze this.

Always keep The IMatch Log file file when you encounter a problem, ZIP and attach. Or send to me via #support  You may want to enable debug logging (see the link above) to produce more detailed log files.

And providing a sample HEIC file (this file format is already becoming a PITA) so we can run some tests would be nice.
I have about 50 HEIC files from different sources. Not all are handled by the Windows WIC codec (to be expected by the very nature of this file format) but none produces a crash.