Manually entering "Date Subject Created"

[birdbrain]

I manually entered a "Date Subject Created" of 1/1/1949 00:00:01 for all photos in a folder taken in 1949 (don't know the exact dates).

I did the "green check" and the time displays (correctly) as 1/1/1949 12:00:01AM

I then assigned these photos to a location ("Churchville") with the Eastern (GMT-5) timezone.

Some photos then appeared as 12/31/1948.  (Sorry...moving too fast and forgot the hour).

I then assigned all the photos in the folder to "Churchville" again because I believed I missed some.

"Date Subject Created" then appeared as 1/1/1949 12:00:01AM +19.

Are there any settings that might cause this behavior?

I checked Preferences > Metadata 2 > and both IPTC and EXIF time zones are empty (use local system time zone).

Any tips appreciated,

Joe

[jch2103]

Dates and times are a pain, especially when including time zones. I don't have a good explanation for what you're seeing, but in the meantime you could select all the images and re-set the date/time to 1949:01:01 00:00:01-05:00. That should give you what you're looking for.

By the way, while checking this, I find that my Nikon Z6 adds the defined camera time zone to the original and digitized date/times; my earlier Nikons didn't add TZ. If you forget to update TZ (from DST or when traveling), your date/time will be off accordingly...

[birdbrain]

I don't have a good explanation for what you're seeing, but in the meantime you could select all the images and re-set the date/time to 1949:01:01 00:00:01-05:00.

Thank you John.
Was trying to avoid adding "-5:00" (extra typing) but I will give this a try. Certainly entering just "1949:01:01" or even "1949:01:01 00:00:01" doesn't seem to "stick".  Something in IMatch seems to be adjusting it.

By the way, while checking this, I find that my Nikon Z6 adds the defined camera time zone to the original and digitized date/times; my earlier Nikons didn't add TZ. If you forget to update TZ (from DST or when traveling), your date/time will be off accordingly...

So far I'm working with scanned photos so I have to manually enter the original dates. But when I get to "modern" photos I will look out for this issue too.  I know my partner and I traveled to EU and saw the time stamps were different upon return to the US. We both have iPhones, happened only one trip, not others, etc.

As you said, dates/times are a pain, to which I add "...with all systems."  (Time zones, formats, date math, etc.)

Thanks and regards,

Joe

[Mario]

I have no problems when setting the create date and date subject created of a file to 1949:01:01 00:00:01 in the Metadata Panel.
The time stamp sticks and is written to the file by ExifTool in both the XMP record and the corresponding fields in the native EXIF record (if there is one).

I can also combine this with a time-zone offset like -05:00 (not that the format is HH:MM not as you quoted H:MM): 1949:01:01 00:00:01-05:00
Again, IMatch saves the time stamp to the database and when I let it write back, the XMP record and the EXIF record in the file is updated. And the EXIF time zone offsets are created and set to -05:00.

Please double check your input, make sure that you use the correct format. Or just use the built-in date selector dialog in the MD panel, which automatically produces the correct date and time format.
If the problem appears after writing back, something with the metadata in your file is wrong. Run the Metadata Analyst to check the metadata of the file for problems.

[birdbrain]

I will double check (again) my entries and take the other tips into consideration.

Some questions / comments:

I have no problems when setting the create date and date subject created of a file to 1949:01:01 00:00:01 in the Metadata Panel.
The time stamp sticks and is written to the file by ExifTool in both the XMP record and the corresponding fields in the native EXIF record (if there is one).

1. So can you confirm...IMatch will not intentionally alter a date that is correctly entered manually? It always "sticks"? Or are there cases where preference settings, locations, etc. come into play?

I can also combine this with a time-zone offset like -05:00 (not that the format is HH:MM not as you quoted H:MM): 1949:01:01 00:00:01-05:00
Again, IMatch saves the time stamp to the database and when I let it write back, the XMP record and the EXIF record in the file is updated. And the EXIF time zone offsets are created and set to -05:00.

2. Thank you for taking the time to check this.

Please double check your input, make sure that you use the correct format. Or just use the built-in date selector dialog in the MD panel, which automatically produces the correct date and time format.

3. As I am very much in the early go slowly / check everything phase, I have double checked already but will do so again. When I enter a date, it displays perfectly.  It is only later that I see the date has changed because I am going slowly. Also entering with a keyboard is always much faster easier than navigating / clicking with a mouse, so it is often preferred, especially as I have many old, scanned photos that need dates. Once I am confident I have my workflow nailed down, I will not be checking so carefully and no one should have to.

Bottom line IMO: Computers should always stop the users from entering data that does not conform to the domain of the data element (e.g., dates should be formatted correctly going in...no need to discover problems later). Perhaps this is a request for an IMatch enhancement and I can log it as such.

If the problem appears after writing back, something with the metadata in your file is wrong. Run the Metadata Analyst to check the metadata of the file for problems.

4. Again, if IMatch said "hey dummy, the date you enter is nonsense", one wouldn't need to debug the data.  I am using NO other tools at all. So, if there is a problem with the metadata in the file it is because the IMatch ecosystem (IM+Exiftool, etc.) did something. But I use IMatch...nothing else...and (IMO) shouldn't have to know what is "under the covers".

I hope this all does not sound harsh. Perhaps I am venting a little frustration as a simple task like entering a date now feels challenging.  IMatch is SO powerful, that I sometimes find it difficult to learn...there as many options, capabilities, etc. I have not found a simple-to-learn-and-use tool for my minimal needs.  There is nothing else out there unless you sell your soul to the devils like Google, etc. At least with IMatch, I believe it will do everything I need (and 1000x more) and do it well.  But it takes a lot of time to learn how to tailor it to one's specific needs before being productive. (OK...this has begun to extend to a separate post).

Joe

[Mario]

This usually just works. IMatch performs some checks when you input data in the MD panel.
Use the date selector dialog if you are unsure.

You write "that the data later changes"...
Under which condition does this happen? What do you do to the file? Do you write back? Modify it in another application? ...
Usually IMatch sets these timestamps only once - during import and when they not already exist in the image (EXIF / XMP metadata).
Users only need to change these timestamps to add missing data (nothing usable in the file) or correcting wrong data (camera clock was off etc.).

[jch2103]

One additional note about the 'Select Date...' control: It automatically adds the local time zone to the selected date/time tag. That's fine in most cases, but sometimes could cause issues. Mario - You indicated that this is a standard Windows control. Are there any options for adding/not adding time zone information?

[Mario]

It is assumed that the time you pick there is in local time.
You can always change or strip the time-zone if you did actually enter a time not in your local time-zone.

[PandDLong]

Joe,

I feel your pain - I have just spent my time getting a grip on date-time - including time-zone - handling and it seems fraught with unintended consequences.   When I run into some similar issues (why did that change?  why are those photos now sorted differently? etc), I have managed to tease out the "why" and there has always been a logical rationale to it.   Then I adapt my workflow and approach.

One of the items that I keep bumping up against is that not all of the places that DateTime are displayed are using the Date Subject Created "as-is".  ie. sometimes there is an adjustment for a time zone so the metadata tag may be exactly as you want but it shows up differently.  Perhaps that is what happened the first time when you assigned the photos to Churchville.

Per your specifics:
   1. If you hit the green-check and the date displayed correctly, then you entered it right.   
   2. The first "auto-change" may be have been a display issue due to time-zone.  Or the time-zone of the location was applied.
   3. The second "auto-change" is mystifying as +19:00 isn't even a legit time zone - oddly it is the same as -05:00 but the wrong day.

I also think you get double-the-pain because your photos are scanned so 'Date Subject Created' and 'Date Created' are not the same (not that this observation is helpful).

My suggestion is to use Time Wiz.  It can set an absolute date-time (and time zone) and it does have edit checking on entry so you will know it is right.    In your case, it has the advantage that it saves your last inputs, so if you are entering the same date-time it will already be entered for you when you open the app.     It is the same as editing in a metadata panel in that it just changes the XMP field(s), changes aren't propagated to the EXIF fields until you do a write-back.

If you display date-time in the file window, I would also double-check the source in the layout editor and make sure it is what you want (I did change some of mine as the pre-existing choices were throwing me off).


As I am knee-deep in datetime stuff myself - but on the far bank of the swamp - I am happy to help out with more specifics as needed.

Idea: Time Wiz can also set the date-time from a variable.  I think (but don't know) that you could set up some global attributes in your database for the various "standard" datetime placeholders you are using in your work and then when opening TimeWiz just reference the attribute you want to use and you will know it is all setup correctly and it should be simpler typing.

Michael

[birdbrain]

@Mario, @PandDLong, @jch2103:

Thank you all for comments, suggestions, etc.

You write "that the data later changes"...
Under which condition does this happen? What do you do to the file? Do you write back? Modify it in another application? ...

"Later changes" means I continue to use IMatch for onloading old, scanned photos, i.e., import folders, scan for faces, set locations, save back to file, etc.. I do not record every last action I take, but I can make notes on what I am doing for a while to help the diagnosis.

I use no other tools at all. The only exception is to use Windows Explorer to see how the metadata looks in the file and to test Windows search function for title, keywords, etc. (which is weak, of course!).  I never use Windows to edit metadata.

Users only need to change these timestamps to add missing data (nothing usable in the file) or correcting wrong data (camera clock was off etc.).

Exactly my case. The photos are scanned, hence there is no "Date Subject Created" and it needs to be manually entered.

One additional note about the 'Select Date...' control: It automatically adds the local time zone to the selected date/time tag. That's fine in most cases, but sometimes could cause issues.

Point taken and for these photos, the local time zone is what I want.

<<Numerous insights etc. snipped out for brevity>>

My suggestion is to use Time Wiz.

Michael

I will try to use your experience and tips and consider Time Wiz.  Thank you for your detailed explanations and sharing your experiences.

[birdbrain]

I was able to capture some steps leading up to an issue. Not exactly the same issues I saw earlier, but here goes...

1. I imported a folder all of which had NO "Date Subject Created" as they are old, scanned photos. I selected them all and successfully set "Date Subject Created".  To do this, I entered "1950:04:06" (with no time) and IMatch shows "4/6/1950 12:00:00AM" (FYI format is US, TZ is GMT-5).  All good.  (See attachment 1)

2. I then wanted to set a different date for a photo. I select only that photo and type (not yet hit Enter) "1950:04:04" (See attachment 2)

3. I press the Enter key and the original date "4/6/1950" appears (See attachment 3).

4. I type (not yet hit Enter) "1950:04:04 00:00:00" (See attachment 4)

5. I press the Enter key and the correct date "4/4/1950" appears (See attachment 5).

So it seems if you want to change the date, you must append 00:00:00.  You cannot just enter the date.



Also today I also noticed that 5 (of the 32) photos I imported yesterday had a "Date Subject Created" of "Yesterday at 4:31PM". It was at that time that I was making these date edits.  Somehow IMatch put the "current" date and time into "Date Subject Created".  I would never have manually done that.

This is very frustrating.  The ability to key-in a date AND trust that it will "stick" should be second nature. IMatch should not change it, without rhyme or reason.

Again, I use NO applications other than IMatch.  Only exceptions: I use Windows Explorer to copy photos to the folder which I then use IMatch to import. I use Windows Explorer to delete XMP sidecar files immediately are importing. No other applications. As far as recreating step-by-step what I did: I key-in dates, press Enter, use green check (or select another photo) to lock-in. Simple.

Joe

[Mario]

No screen shots attached.

So it seems if you want to change the date, you must append 00:00:00.  You cannot just enter the date.

Of course. This is not a date-only or time-only metadata tag. If you modify it manually, you are responsible to use the correct format. I said so in my first reply.
Don't leave bits out or invent new formats.

YYYY:MM:DD HH:MM:SS with an optional time zone offset either +HH:MM or -HH:MM.

All else is wrong and produces probably unwanted results. Don't manipulate timestamps directly if you are unsure. Use the date picker dialog integrated in the Metadata Panel.

Also today I also noticed that 5 (of the 32) photos I imported yesterday had a "Date Subject Created" of "Yesterday at 4:31PM".

The only time IMatch sets these timestamps are when it imports a file.
The only situation in which IMatch sets date created and date subject created to the last modified timestamp is when your files don't contain any usable metadata.
Please see How IMatch uses Date and Time Information
and make sure the option Edit > Preferences > Metadata 2: Mark file as pending... is set to Yes.

[birdbrain]

Sorry if I didn't get it the first time.  I was not clear to me that you have to enter the full date AND time, every time. I thought just date was OK, which defaulted to time 00:00:00 in local TZ.

In fact, if you only enter the date, IMatch displays correct date plus "00:00:00".  This feedback implies the entry was OK.

Going forward, I will enter the date AND the time...MUCH faster than using a date picker, TimeWiz, etc.

Not providing a warning at time of data entry / keying has been a basic tenet of user experience for decades. So perhaps -- if this is impossible for some reason beyond me -- the alternative is to force the use of the "picker", recent entries, etc. and have no provision for typing.

[Mario]

The timestamp is checked and when it fails the validation, Windows will beep once and IMatch resets the timestamp back to the original value.
I've just tried and it works fine.

[PandDLong]

Joe,

New idea for you.

When I suggested Time Wiz, I had an assumption about your workflow - good reminder that assumptions are dangerous.   I had thought the retention of the date in the app would save you work to offset the work to load and use the app.

If you are entering/modifying different dates a lot and want to simplify (and speed-up) your typing, how about using custom fields for data entry and then a template to populate the Date Subject Created.   

My assumptions are that the time stamp isn't that important to you and you want to quickly and easily change the day (and frequently just the day, not the year or month).

You can setup 3 custom tags in the metadata panel layout - one each for year, month and day.   Then you just edit the fields you want.   When done, you run a metadata template that "builds" and populates the DateSubjectCreated from your custom tags and adds a nominal time (like 00:00:01) - or you could add another custom tag for the time if you want it to vary.  You could run this template on a large number of files to minimize the mouse and key strokes - ie. you don't need to run it until you want to commit the date to the file.

Just to make sure I wasn't leading you astray, I did try it out.   It seemed to work fine - including a write-back test.

I use the PLUS XMP Custom tags (there are 10) for my own purposes - such as this.

But - the onus is 100% on you to enter the year. month and day correctly in each of the fields (kinda like now).  One could build a QA check in a file window but that likely isn't necessary.  Also if you ever update the DateSubject Created tag directly, you would need to write a template to move that info to the custom fields.  In this case, it's easiest to use only the custom tags to maintain that piece of data.

Hopefully this is more helpful than my last suggestion.

Michael

[Mario]

I think just entering a valid and complete date and time in the MD panel is the way to go.

[birdbrain]

The timestamp is checked and when it fails the validation, Windows will beep once and IMatch resets the timestamp back to the original value.

When I turn the sound on I get exactly the feedback you describe here.  I normally and intentionally keep it turned off.

When I imported files with with a Date Subj Created (or blank or null or whatever it is), then entered only yyyy:mm:dd, what then appears in the field is the full date that I entered in local format (m/d/yyyy), with a timestamp of 12:00:00AM.  Since the sound was off when I did this I don't know if it beeped or not. When I get to my next batch of folders I will try it.

My assumptions are that the time stamp isn't that important to you and you want to quickly and easily change the day (and frequently just the day, not the year or month).

<snip details about custom tags>

Yes, for archiving old photos, time of day means nothing.  In fact, I often don't know month or day or even year, let alone time

"Frequently just the day": Sometimes a photo is Jan 1890 (day unknown), then April 6 1950, then 1963 (no month or day known).  In other words, all over the place.  So more frequently changing just the day would not be a good assumption.

But thank you for thinking about this and the tips about custom tags. That might be helpful someday.

I think just entering a valid and complete date and time in the MD panel is the way to go.

Agreed. I am "onboarding" and tagging entire folders at once (Christmas 1957 photos), not one photo at a time.  So typing will still probably be fastest, even with adding 00:00:00 every time.