Categories and Keywords?

[PoeschelA]

Hi,
I'm a litte bit confused between Categories and Keywords.
Coming from iMatch 3.6. I'm using a hierarchical category tree like that:
Ort * location.Europa * Europe.Spanien * Spain.Barcelona * Barcelona

As fare as I understand (hopefully) these are 4 keyword
Ort * location
Europa * Europe
Spanien * Spain
Barcelona * Barcelona

So I assign a photo to a category "Barcelona * Barcelona" but the 4 keywords (under @Keywords) are not marked.
Where is my mistake?

By the way: I LOVE Imatch 5.x - It's hard for me to survive, because everything is "different" to V3 but I explorer day by day new great features! Thanks for your great work!!!

[jch2103]

See the Help regarding the important distinction between @Keywords and other categories.

If you have keywords in @Keywords and you also want to see them in Categories, see the Help regarding data-driven categories and also formulas.

In addition, if you have the location metadata fields filled in (e.g., Country, State, City), see the IMatch Sample Categories in the Categories tab.

Lots of options!

[Mario]

So I assign a photo to a category "Barcelona * Barcelona" but the 4 keywords (under @Keywords) are not marked.

Assigning a file to a category does not create a keyword. Unless you assign the file to one of the categories under @Keywords. @Keywords is a special category. See the IMatch help for details.

In general:

+ Categories are categories (IMatch feature, not linked to any metadata standard, work for all file formats). Stored inside the database.
+ Keywords are related to the XMP metadata standard (and IPTC), are non-hierarchical by nature and stored inside your files.
+ Hierarchical keywords are how IMatch 5 works with keywords. They are not part of the XMP standard, but have been added by Adobe later. But they are widely supported.

To work with keywords in IMatch, use the Keyword Panel. IMatch mirrors the keywords in your files in the special @Keywords hierarchy. Definitely see the help on @Keywords to understand how XMP treats keywords, why keywords need to be flattened, how and why IMatch works with keywords the way it does.

[JohnZeman]

Just to further clarify (and hopefully not further confuse you) if you do not use keywords the way they are intended to be used, and only want the embedded keywords to be mirror copies of your assigned categories, then you can use the Categories panel to assign your @Keyword categories.  When IMatch writes metadata back to the files those @Keyword categories will be written to the files.


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[sinus]

Just to further clarify (and hopefully not further confuse you) if you do not use keywords the way they are intended to be used, and only want the embedded keywords to be mirror copies of your assigned categories, then you can use the Categories panel to assign your @Keyword categories.  When IMatch writes metadata back to the files those @Keyword categories will be written to the files.

Hm, you did confuse me now 

I must think about this. The normal approach is, I thought, use the keyword-panel to enter keywords. And they will be finally also in the @keywords-category. Why the other way round? Sorry, John ... maybe it is simply late (and we have lost (and USA too) the 1/8-final in Brasil. 

[JohnZeman]

It's not good when I confuse even you Markus. 

Let me explain it another way.  I do not use regular keywords so my keywords metadata in images would normally be empty.  However I do want to have copies of my assigned IMatch categories stored in each image so I use each image's keywords metadata storage area for that.

I used to copy my assigned IMatch categories to keywords with a script in IMatch 3.6.  In version 5 I don't need a script, all I have to do is to assign @Keyword categories using the category panel and IMatch writes those @Keyword categories into each image's keywords metadata for me.

[sinus]

It's not good when I confuse even you Markus. 

Let me explain it another way.  I do not use regular keywords so my keywords metadata in images would normally be empty.  However I do want to have copies of my assigned IMatch categories stored in each image so I use each image's keywords metadata storage area for that.

I used to copy my assigned IMatch categories to keywords with a script in IMatch 3.6.  In version 5 I don't need a script, all I have to do is to assign @Keyword categories using the category panel and IMatch writes those @Keyword categories into each image's keywords metadata for me.

No, no, John, you do all very good, it's me, what sometimes "has a long line" (we say in German, "er hat eine lange Leitung").
IM3, I think, I understand very good. But IM5, I have used so far only for testing here and there, and I do not work every day with it, and a lot of the functions and so on are in my mind, but I have not tried everything (I think, I am ready for a real change in 2-8 weeks).

So I do not understand everything full.
Ah, I think, I understand now.
But, sorry to ask, If you do so, that is fine.
But generally, you could also do enter your keywords (in your case your categories) in the Keyword-panel, and because IM5 would mirror this in the @keyword - categorie, you would end with exactly the same result as you do the other way round?
Hmmm, I ought to try this. But I think, I understand now, like you work with your images.

[Mario]

The primary feature to view and edit keywords in IMatch is the Keyword Panel. IMatch mirrors all hierarchical keywords automatically in the special @Keywords hierarchy.

@Keywords is special in many ways, for example you can:

+ Add keywords to files by assigning the files to one of the child categories of @Keywords.
+ Remove keywords from files by un-assigning them from a @Keywords category.
+ Change keywords by files from one @Keyword child category to another.
+ ...

It basically depends on your workflow which works best for you. Use whatever is more efficient for a given task.

[JohnZeman]

But generally, you could also do enter your keywords (in your case your categories) in the Keyword-panel, and because IM5 would mirror this in the @keyword - categorie, you would end with exactly the same result as you do the other way round?

Yes, I just prefer to use the category panel. 

[Ferdinand]

Let me explain it another way.  I do not use regular keywords so my keywords metadata in images would normally be empty.  However I do want to have copies of my assigned IMatch categories stored in each image so I use each image's keywords metadata storage area for that.

I used to copy my assigned IMatch categories to keywords with a script in IMatch 3.6.  In version 5 I don't need a script, all I have to do is to assign @Keyword categories using the category panel and IMatch writes those @Keyword categories into each image's keywords metadata for me.

John - It's not clear to me why you think that you're not using "regular keywords".  What you're doing in the categories panel is no different to what you would be doing in the keyword panel - you're assigning keywords, but without the assistance of the thesaurus.  In the categories panel, @keywords may look like categories, but they're still keywords.

[JohnZeman]

Ferdinand you're right, I know @keyword categories are keywords so maybe I shouldn't say it the way I have been.

At one point I had it in my head that if I entered keywords using the keywords panel then I shouldn't also enter @keywords with the category panel.  However I just retested that idea and it doesn't seem to matter which panel they're entered from.

[Erik]

An important aspect of what John is doing may be useful for those coming from IM3.6

Assigning images to the @Keywords as categories is pretty much the samething as many of were doing in IM3.6 when we were assigning categories that we intended to use as keywords. 

I would imagine that if you are used to IM3.6, you could essentially use the @Keywords categories in the Category panel to stay with that type of workflow.  It is essentially what might work best for some people. 

For others, like myself, I find the Keywords panel to be exactly one of the big features that was "missing" in IM3.6 in terms of assigning a hierarchy to my images.  The @Keywords allows me to browse all this easily.  I've even set up a secondary DataDrivenCategory on regular Keywords to make sure I don't have anything unintended in the Flat portion of my keywords as well as to find keywords that are otherwise a bit difficult to find when browsing. 

[Ferdinand]

I've even set up a secondary DataDrivenCategory on regular Keywords to make sure I don't have anything unintended in the Flat portion of my keywords

Won't these show up under @keywords anyway?  (Although this may depend on your Metadata preferences about writing out flat keywords.)

[sinus]

But generally, you could also do enter your keywords (in your case your categories) in the Keyword-panel, and because IM5 would mirror this in the @keyword - categorie, you would end with exactly the same result as you do the other way round?

Yes, I just prefer to use the category panel. 

Yep, that's it.
Say, you want add the keyword "Topaz". For the final result, it is not important, what way you choose. You could enter this in the @keyword of categories, or in the keyword-panel.

It is simply a choice for the user. The keyword-panel offers some features more, like the thesaurus-synonyms, but if a user does not use this, he can also go the other way round.

We must think, that IM does MIRROR these special keywords, if you enter this in the categories or in the keyword-panel. It does not matter.

You, John, of course know this, but maybe this is not clear for all users.

[Erik]

I've even set up a secondary DataDrivenCategory on regular Keywords to make sure I don't have anything unintended in the Flat portion of my keywords

Won't these show up under @keywords anyway?  (Although this may depend on your Metadata preferences about writing out flat keywords.)

The @Keywords only shows the hierarchical keywords, right?  At least that's my experience (or perhaps how I have it setup).

That's fantastic, but even with an organized hierarchy I sometimes find it easy just to browse on the flat keywords than try to navigate the hierarchy.  I have grouping set up, so I can make some order, but otherwise it's nice to separate the hierarchical and flat keywords for browsing.

[Ferdinand]

The @Keywords only shows the hierarchical keywords, right?  At least that's my experience (or perhaps how I have it setup).

You are correct.  I was thinking of something else.  Sorry.  That's the danger of trying to comment on posts when I'm travelling without a copy of V5 to refer to.

[Erik]

The @Keywords only shows the hierarchical keywords, right?  At least that's my experience (or perhaps how I have it setup).

You are correct.  I was thinking of something else.  Sorry.  That's the danger of trying to comment on posts when I'm travelling without a copy of V5 to refer to.

That's ok.  I thought I might be missing something.

[sinus]

For others, like myself, I find the Keywords panel to be exactly one of the big features that was "missing" in IM3.6 in terms of assigning a hierarchy to my images.  The @Keywords allows me to browse all this easily.  I've even set up a secondary DataDrivenCategory on regular Keywords to make sure I don't have anything unintended in the Flat portion of my keywords as well as to find keywords that are otherwise a bit difficult to find when browsing.

Erik, it would be nice, if you could explain this a bit more, how you have setup these secondary DataDrivenCategory, maybe even with an image.
This is also interesting for me.

[cytochrome]

While we are discussing keywords/categories (I am a total novice at keywords, never used them) ; is there a simple way to to get my WHERE cat (data-driven) as a hierarchical-tree into @keywords.

I would not like to have it written automatically into my image files but only on demand...

Francis

[JohnZeman]

Copy the parent category of your WHERE category and paste it into @Keywords.

I think you could just drag and drop it into @keywords too but I'm not on my IMatch computer at the moment to verify that.

[cytochrome]

Thank you John, I did a CTRL-C/CTRL-V to copy WHERE to @keywords ut see nothing happening.

I hoped to see something like Where|Irlande|Leinster|Skerries|Ardgillan in the list so I could drop it to a series of RAW/JPG. In fact this metadata is already in the xmp/iptc, but it is a simple test. My final goal is to get some of my WHAT and WHO written to the images.

Naive, eh?

Francis

[JohnZeman]

Francis I just created a new direct category called Test Category, assigned some images to it, then did CTRL C to copy it.  Next I selected the @Keywords category and did a CTRL V and it pasted it right into @keywords.

So I don't know why it didn't work for you, all I can say is it works here for me.  Screen shot attached.

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[cytochrome]

Well, I don't know either. I can copy a category (I also set up a small test one) but when I want to paste nothing happens. If I highlight @keywords and go to Edit Paste is greyed...

I can create a child cat in @Keywords and paste my test-cat into this child, but that's not what I want.

Also, when I open @keyword I get a long list (there are about 43000 items...) with no hierarchy. I'll go back to the manual

And thanks for the help

Francis

[Ferdinand]

I would not like to have it written automatically into my image files but only on demand...

I can't test this on my travels (and so it's dangerous to comment), but I would have thought that what John suggested would either trigger a writeback or set a pending writeback for all the files in the categories that you dragged to @keywords.

I have written a script that does on-demand what Francis wants.  But if I recommend that script then Mario will point out that the modern way to do this in V5 is to use a metadata template.

[cytochrome]

Thanks for the comment, Ferdinand.  Suddenly I see my Where cat (and all sub-cats) in @keywords. So that's OK.

From here is there a way to get say "|Irlande|Leinster|Skerries|Ardgillan" of the that have it in the "normal" Where cat? As much as I appreciate your scripts (I used them in IM3 to handle this) I would prefer to use IM5 internals to transfer specific keywords to the image files.

Francis

[Ferdinand]

I agree with you regarding using native Imatch capability if possible.

I don't understand your last post.  You want to write categories to keywords on-demand, right?  Try a metadata template.

[cytochrome]

Hello Ferdinand,

I had never played with metadata panels apart from the simple matadata panels (copies of dedicated parts of my personal metadata). I spent a whole afternoon trying  to setup one to fill the Adobe HierarchicalKeywords with Country; State; City; Location.

It was a terrible fiasco!! I worked on some files (NEF but same outcome with JPGs) who already had this tag filled with "France; Grotte de Dargilan; Languedoc; Meyrueis" while I wanted "France; Languedoc; Meyrueis; Grotte de Dargilan"

What I did:

- set up a metadata template  to fill the tag XMP::Lightroom\HierarchicalSubject with {File.MD.Composite\Country\Country\0}; {File.MD.Composite\State\State\0}; {File.MD.Composite\City\City\0}; {File.MD.Composite\Location\Location\0}

- when I execute the command this works fine, but then I click the yellow pen and "France; Grotte de Dargilan; Languedoc; Meyrueis" is back again

- I saw that the NEF had already a tag XMP-lr:hierarchicalSubjetc France*Grotte de Dargilan*Languedoc*Meyrueis and IPTC Keywords France*Grotte de Dargilan*Languedoc*Meyrueis and XMP-dc:Subject France*Grotte de Dargilan*Languedoc*Meyrueis

- I went to the exiftool forums and saw that for a similar case Phil Harvey suggested to delete the IPTC

- I used the ECP with -overwrite_original_in_place  -IPTC:Keywords=  {Files}  no joy (my template worked but then was written over again)

- I used -overwrite_original_in_place -IPTC:Keywords= -XMP-dc:Subject=   {Files} in case it was copied back from the XMP-dc ==> no success

- I used -overwrite_original_in_place   -IPTC:Keywords=   -XMP-dc:Subject=   -XMP-lr:hierarchicalSubject=   {Files} to also clear the hierachicalkeywords  this does not work either and in fact deleted not only the content of the tag but also the tag itself. My metadata template was no longer applied.


With images that don't have any keyword yet the template works fine, but I have a number of files with keywords (don't know how they crept in) but they are incomplete or in a bad order and I am really stuck!! Of course I tried to disable MWG compliance but I am loosing metadata this way. I could temporarily modify the arg files to avoid this back copy effect but it is easy to do something silly.

So if you or somebody else has an idea I'll be more than happy

Francis

In fact that was a confusion, it doesn't work even with files that don't already have keywords
PS It works if I set the template to Merge instead of replace!! WHy? because it can't replace nothing??
PPS it is the ; separator that produces the shuffle from country; state; city; location to location; state; city; country .... if I omit the ; in the template all stays like it was. Because it is considered a single keyword?

[Ferdinand]

Francis, it's a bit hard to help in my current location and without a copy of V5 to work with.  What you did sounds right to me at a quick read, so I don't understand why it didn't work.  Your problem is essentially the same as that one with CR2 ratings not sticking (see the FAQ) so the solution should be the same.  Perhaps Mario will be able to spot something.

[ddprat]

Hello Francis,

My IM5 configuration is using | as hierarchical separator in Preferences. I tried with this string "{File.MD.Composite\Country\Country\0}|{File.MD.Composite\State\State\0}|{File.MD.Composite\City\City\0}|{File.MD.Composite\Location\Location\0}" in a test template and the result is fine for me.

I hope this may help you.

Regards from France|Ain|Mionnay 

[Mario]

From the Metadata Template help:

Repeatable Tags

Some metadata tags can hold more than one value. For example, a file can have any number of hierarchical keywords. To enter multiple values for such tags, separate the values with a semicolon ( ; ) in the edit box. If the target tag already has a value, it will not be added again.

[cytochrome]

Hello Francis,

My IM5 configuration is using | as hierarchical separator in Preferences. I tried with this string "{File.MD.Composite\Country\Country\0}|{File.MD.Composite\State\State\0}|{File.MD.Composite\City\City\0}|{File.MD.Composite\Location\Location\0}" in a test template and the result is fine for me.

I hope this may help you.

Regards from France|Ain|Mionnay 

Salut André,

On pourrait commencer des posts [French] je plaisante bien sur.

Yes the | separator works well, when I used ; I got weird results because it picked also keywords that where added before, and also it shuffled the city country etc in various ways.

I still have problems with NEF or JPG files with GPS coordinates:

- with the template set to delete existing content nothing happens (no yellow pen).
- with the template set to merge with existing content the yellow pen appears but clicking on it does not write the keywords to the NEF
- the yellow pen appears again, after clicking it writes the keywords. In the NEF I get twice the keywords for exaple: La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France (copied with ExifToolGUI)
- the yellow pen reapears if I click the NEF now has 5 copies of the Keywords La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France*La Favière*Prads*Provence*France
- a forced update changes nothing
- only way I found to cure is to set now the template to delete exixting content. The NEF now shows La Favière*Prads*Provence*France as should be.

With NEF or JPGs without GPS data and template set to merge all is well.

Francis
France| Provence| Prads| La Favière

[Mario]

This topic is no tip or FAQ for other users. Please see the board description about what to post in the FAQ, Workflow board:

This board contains answers to frequently asked questions, workflow suggestions, tutorials for various features and a bag full of tips and tricks for all IMatch functionality. Post here if you want to share your workflow, tips & tricks you have for other users etc. If you want to ask a question, use the General Discussion board.

If you have question about IMatch (instead of writing up tips for other users), please use the General board instead. I will move this thread to the appropriate board for you.

You seem to have problems with Metadata Templates and keywords. Please make sure you understand what ; and | means together with the special options for repeatable tags like keywords. And why you get different results when you use ; | or neither of both. I quoted the appropriate section of the help above, and also a comment.

[Erik]

For others, like myself, I find the Keywords panel to be exactly one of the big features that was "missing" in IM3.6 in terms of assigning a hierarchy to my images.  The @Keywords allows me to browse all this easily.  I've even set up a secondary DataDrivenCategory on regular Keywords to make sure I don't have anything unintended in the Flat portion of my keywords as well as to find keywords that are otherwise a bit difficult to find when browsing.

Erik, it would be nice, if you could explain this a bit more, how you have setup these secondary DataDrivenCategory, maybe even with an image.
This is also interesting for me.

I'm not around my normal computer at the moment, but it is fairly simple...

I create a Data-driven category called Flat_Keywords (you could name this whatever you want).  It is data-driven on the Composite Keywords field (I've also used the XMP\Subject).  There is no hierarchy, and it can get messy since this essentially is the flattening of your hierarchy, minus the excluded keywords.   I do use the auto-group option so that I get a low level of the first letter for each keyword.  It keeps the data-driven category clean.

I use this type of category for two primary reasons:

1. I can quickly confirm that keywords that I want to be excluded have been: Since many of my files come into IM5 with keywords, it's part of the clean-up operation and setup for my thesaurus.

2. I can quickly find keywords that are similar or that I may have forgotten where they are in the hierarchy tree.  Using the keyword panel in conjunction, I can catch when a keyword is in two different hierarchies when it shouldn't be.

Long-term, I may get rid of them once I get my hierarchy fully cleaned up to my liking or if performance becomes an issue.  Short term this DDC is quite helpful.

[sinus]

Hey Erik

Thanks for your answer, it is interesting for me. I will have a look into this.
I think generally, in IM5 I have a better control over the keywords like in IM3.