Organization of keywords

[A1ex]

Hello community! I am happy that I learned about this program and now I am trying to adapt it for their own purposes!

For me, it is necessary to have a specific order of keywords for each file (jpg). Now I'm forced to use a crazy sequence of actions into excel, and it's terrible. So..

The question that haunts me: how can I organize my keywords? I mean field "Current Keywords" into "Keyword panel".

I found only two ways: "Full Edit Mode" and "choose keywords from the thesaurus in the correct order" But! These methods are very inconvenient and time-consuming, but iMatch is ideal for all other parameters... 

It would be ideal simply drag and drop keywords mouse! 

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Mario]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve.

Keywords have no order, none of the metadata standards imposes any particular order. Most applications, including IMatch, will display the keywords found in your files in alphabetical order. ExifTool may (I'm not sure at this time) sort keywords alphabetically when updating keywords in your files. There is no way to produce a particular order for keywords.

[A1ex]

You are right, other applications get keywords in alphabetical order even if I saved in right order
But if I need, I can copy keyword from iMatch and paste to other applications manually. And then I have problem: on the one side, iMatch has good instruments for work with keywords as "thesaurus" and "metadata templates", but on the other side, it don't help me because I can't sorting keywords.
Another "feature": when I copy keywords from one file to another through check both files, keywords second file become alphabetical although first was and is right(manual) order..

[Mario]

As I said, many applications and IMatch just sort keywords alphabetically.
Why do you rely on a specific order of keywords? Never heard about that somebody would need something like that.
Perhaps you should better use one of the text fields, e.g. Description.

[A1ex]

I can't use "Description" or other fields because "thesaurus" and "@Keywords" not working with them as with "keywords" field.
I need it because i use many keywords and some keywords has higher priority then, other. For example, in "5W" concept, who is more important than when, and when is more important than where.
For this reason, in my dreams, I want that synonyms placed at the very end by default and if I choose keyword after keyword with synonym, keyword without synonym placed after keyword (that has synonym) but before its synonym 

[Mario]

Your requirements seem rather special, I'm afraid.
I suggest you add a feature request so other users can comment on it and maybe like it.

Tips:
Do you know, by the way, that you can color-code keywords (e.g. show "who" keywords in different colors than "when")?

See this article in the IMatch Knowledge Base for more info. And of course the IMatch help system.

You can also resize the current keywords panel in the Keyword Panel so you can see all your keywords at once. Together with color coding this should give you a pretty nice view, even without a specific sort order for keywords.

[sinus]

And, besides of Mario's suggestion, what I have done a quite long time (in fact, with some keywords I does it still), is to give keywords a number.

This gives you quite a good ordering system. And you could delete such keywords-number, before you give such photos away, very easy. You are free to use it, you imagination is the border.   

I mean, keywords like (unsorted, simply some ideas):

1-dog
2-cat
3-horse

where-Berlin
where-London
where-Zurich

who-Ben
who-John

plants-cactus
plants-roses

1_horse
2_ape
3_fox

a_landscape
b_indoor
c_macro
d_flight

1-where....
2-who...
3-when...

and so on.

now, to remove such number, like "a-" or "where-" you could write a script, this part would be, I think, an easy one. If you are not familiar with scripts, here on this forum you would get help, I think.

[A1ex]

to Mario: "color-code keywords" is good addition but it does not help me in this situation.

Important not having specific keywords, but the presence of specific words in a particular location. Programs of my colleagues cut the keywords, and some people is one number, others a different number. I can't control it.

to sinus: system with prefixes what you wrote is good and safe, but it will not help me, because manually order(that I want) is different from one photo to other.

For example, I explain on one photo:



Here, I have several variants to keywording:

• Italy, Lombardia, Provincia di Brescia, Iseo, 2015, vacation, summer, July, industry, transport, railway, station, train
• 2015, vacation, summer, July, industry, transport, railway, station, train, Italy, Lombardia, Provincia di Brescia, Iseo
• industry, transport, railway, station, train, Italy, Lombardia, Provincia di Brescia, Iseo, 2015, vacation, summer, July

If my colleague can have only 5 keywords, he will get 3 variants:

• Italy, Lombardia, Provincia di Brescia, Iseo, 2015
• 2015, vacation, summer, July, industry
• industry, transport, railway, station, train

As you can see, the difference is very big. So I need sorting this keywords in specific order for this photo:
"2015, vacation, Italy, Iseo, railway, station, train, Lombardia, Provincia di Brescia, summer, July, industry, transport"
Then I know that my colleague will have first 5 keywords "2015, vacation, Italy, Iseo, railway", in the same time I can find this photo in my base through keyword "summer"

The most offensive, that in the properties of the file in Windows is the very simple to sort keywords simply to drag mouse

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Ger]

I remember a similar discussion a while ago. Same conclusion, however I think Mario also mentioned that the IMatch representation of the keywords is in the order of entry. I tried this and indeed it worked.

[sinus]

Hm, sorry, I am afraid, I do not understand.

Why your collegue has only 5 keywords?
You will find images,  if the word summer is at the beginning, in the middle or at the end.

The keywords will be reflected in the categories. And, as far as I know, categories can be sorted. Does this help?

[A1ex]

Why your collegue has only 5 keywords?
Such a program. I can't do nothing about it.

You will find images,  if the word summer is at the beginning, in the middle or at the end.
I know it, but I need that some keywords was for me and my colleague, and some keywords was only for me.

[sinus]

So, you place, as Mario suggested, a Feature request or ... your collegue should change his program!

The later is surely the better for me. 

[jch2103]

I know it, but I need that some keywords was for me and my colleague, and some keywords was only for me.

If you want to keep some information only for yourself, have you considered using Categories for this? This keeps the information only in IMatch, but not in the image file.

[Lincoln]

There are a few stock libraries that require keywords to be placed in order of priority - not many but the best known of these is Alamy

a quote from their website

"Words in sequence that match phrases entered by customers will carry more weight than words not in sequence. For example, if a customer searches for "blue whale", an image with the Keywords "blue" and "whale" next to each other in the Keywords or Caption will have a higher relevancy score than an image containing the string: "blue, sea, humpback, whale" in its Keywords."

Controlling the order of the keywords is very important. As A1ex pointed out being able to control the order of the keywords would save a lot of time!

http://www.alamy.com/contributor/help/alamysearch-engine-explained.asp

[Mario]

Let's see again:

1. IMatch does not force-sort your keywords. The keywords are written in the same order in which they appear in the Keyword panel.

I've made a few quick tests and this seems to be OK. IPTC keywords, XMP subjects and XMP hierarchicalKeywords all use the proper order, and the order is also stored property in the file.

2. You wrote that keywords get sorted when you copy keywords between files. Which feature in IMatch do you use?

3. When I insert keywords from the thesaurus, they are stored in the order in which I enter them. And they are also written in that sequence.

All this looks good to me.


Or is the problem you are talking about that IMatch gives you now special features to somehow re-sort / reorder keywords by dragging them around in the keyword panel? Or via a right-click menu with options like "Move up", "Move to front"?

That would be a feature request. Please add it in the feature request board and include a link to your Alamo page to add some weight. I have never heard that a web site or service prioritizes search results by the order of keywords, but you always learn something new. Hierarchical keywords would be much better for that purpose, and IMatch supports these fully.

You can always change the order of keywords by removing it (Ctrl+Click) and then adding it again.
To change the order of existing keywords, switch to the full edit mode (where keywords become editable as text) and then move the keywords around as you wish. IMatch should write them in exactly that order.

[A1ex]

If you want to keep some information only for yourself, have you considered using Categories for this? This keeps the information only in IMatch, but not in the image file.
I can't use it exactly, because I use my own dictionary in "thesaurus"

Lincoln You example is excellent! I heard about Alamy, but I'm not working with them now.
Paragraph from Alamy, that perfectly shows my situation: "In order to return the most relevant images to customers, there are three keyword fields carrying different weights – Essential (50 characters), Main (300 characters) Comprehensive (856). The search engine views each Keyword field in descending significance with the Essential keyword field having the greatest relevance."

Mario 1. I know it: I found only two ways: "Full Edit Mode" and "choose keywords from the thesaurus in the correct order" But! These methods are very inconvenient and time-consuming.

2. 

• I check(mouse click) file without metadata
• I check(ctrl+mouse click) second file(donor)
• I check(mouse click) metadata fields(click on pencil)
• I save the changes(ctrl+S)

3. It is good by default!
reorder keywords by dragging them around in the keyword panel
Yes, I mean it.

That would be a feature request. Please add it in the feature request board and include a link to your Alamo page to add some weight.
I don't work with Alamy, but Lincoln's example is very accurate, so I can use it for creation request.

I'll describe my ideal keywording process with my photo:

• I fill "Current Keywords" with help thesaurus In "Keywords" panel
• I add several non-standard keywords in "Keyword Editor" field("enter new keywords here..")
• I reorder keywords by dragging them around in the keyword panel
• Done!

[Mario]

Posts in the generic boards are forgotten quickly. If you want suggest a change to IMatch or a new feature, please add a feature request to the feature request board. I don't search the generic boards for post which may contain wishes, ideas or suggestions. And only the feature request board allows other users to like your request to prioritize it.

[A1ex]

I'll do it! Thanks!
But what about copying metadata from one file to another? I need to create one more feature request or it is bug?

[Mario]

I asked you to tell me which of the many ways to copy metadata you use. This question has not been answered so I cannot say. Since the order of keywords is not defined nor considered, sorting keywords it not a bug I guess. It's just an inconvenience for your special workflow.

[A1ex]

Mario: I thought that your question is "You wrote that keywords get sorted when you copy keywords between files. Which feature in IMatch do you use?" and my answer is "I check(mouse click) file without metadata, I check(ctrl+mouse click) second file(donor), I check(mouse click) metadata fields(click on pencil), I save the changes(ctrl+S)".
If you mean anything else and I'm not understood, sorry for my not ideal english.

[Mario]

It may be all clear to you, but not to me   
When you write about what you do, please keep in mind that I need to be able to understand and probably repeat what you did. The more info you give, the better.
Copying keywords can be done via the Metadata Panel, the Keyword Panel, Metadata Templates, the Paste Attributes command and probably some other features as well...

So,

+ You have multiple files selected.
+ In the Metadata Panel you click the pen to indicate tags as "updated".
+ You now save the changes made to the Metadata Panel.
+ IMatch writes the tags you have marked as modified to all selected files.

Do you use the Default metadata panel layout? It includes the hierarchcialSubject tag. Is this the tag you update the copy keywords?

[A1ex]

All right!

I use different layouts, but I think it does not matter, because I mean only one keywords tag "XMP::Lightroom\hierarhicalSubject\HierarhicalSubject\0"(which showing in "Keywords" panel)

[Mario]

You use a custom Metadata Panel layout to which you have added the hierarchicalSubject tag.
You select multiple files, click the pen of the hierarchicalSubject tag and then click on Save.
This writes the keywords as displayed into all files.

You say that, for one or more files ? in your selection, the keywords are written in a different order?

[A1ex]

Now, in 5.4.18 version it works correctly.
Early, I selected two files: first hasn't keywords and second file has keywords order "sun, cloud, sunny". After copy metadata(method listed above) first file recieved keywords in alphabetical order "cloud, sun, sunny"
Thanks for help!

[Mario]

So the problem is solved?
Which version of IMatch did you use before?

[A1ex]

So the problem is solved?
Yes

Which version of IMatch did you use before?
5.4.17.0 trial verion
Now I bought license, downloaded licensed distributive from site and installed at the same folder.

[Mario]

Hm, strange. The licensed version and the trial version are identical, except for some minor omissions and the 30 day time lock for databases
But a solved problem is a solved problem