Filter Panel Active - non active

[Gerd]

Hi,

what is the difference in the Filter-Panel between enable/disable and Active marked/unmarked?
Gerd

I only get results, if both are set to enable / marked.

Regards

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[Mario]

The pause button in the toolbar disables the filter panel - all files are visible again. You can use that to quickly enable/disable whatever filters you have in the filter panel.

The Active filter in the list represents the settings you are currently seeing in the filter panel. If you disable it, and none of the other saved filters in the list is enabled, no filter will be applied.

See the topic on Filters in the help for information about the Active filter, all toolbar buttons, the filter manager etc.

[Gerd]

Hi Marion,

... again ... I see no difference ... 

If Active is not marked and I'm e.g. in the @All-category, then I see all pics, doen't matter, if Filter-Panel is set to enable or disable.

If Active is marked, then the filter-settings become active, but only, if also the Filter-Panel is set to enable.

For me I do not see the advantage for the Panel-Filter settting. To make filters work, it has allways to be enabled and with the Active-box I can set the filters working or not ...

For what is Filter-Panel enabled to use, if Active-box is not selected?

Regards
Gerd

[Mario]

You can enable more than the Active filter in the list!
If you have only Active enabled, disabling it has the same effect as pressing Pause: The filter is off.
But if you have more than one filter enabled in the list, pause will disable all at once. And it's easier to reach.

[BenAW]

One of your "saved" filters is "Bookmarked Files", just below Active.
Bookmark some files, deselect "Active" and select "Bookmarked Files".
Now see how the Filter Pause button (enable/disable) works

[JohnZeman]

I agree the filter panel, while extremely powerful, can be a bit confusing to understand, even after reading the help.  One thing that might help users to understand it better would be if someone made a youtube video demonstrating it in action.  Not now of course, but once IMatch 5 goes fully public I'd think a series of youtube instruction videos could be a great asset in learning this program.

Unfortunately, creating videos isn't something I do, otherwise I'd volunteer to make a few.

[Mario]

Maybe IMatch 5 gets some endorses or fans who make some videos. I can't afford to pay for them, I'm not Adobe...

The Filter panel is a typical example. Once you know how it works, it's all easy and sunshine. Users who struggle with the Filter Panel master other complex aspects of IMatch with ease. And users who have a hard time with, say, Attributes, manage the filter panel immediately. Maybe they have used something similar before, who knows?. It's just impossible to create every feature and help topic in ways which make them understandable for all users alike.

I can judge pretty well now from the feedback in the community and via email which features are hard for many users. I make notes and improve the help for these features, restructure information, add more pictures and examples. I also change the feature itself sometimes. Still, I'll never be able to make it equally easy for all users - not unless I go the Apple way: "Remove features and dumb it down until everybody understands it immediately" 

[Ferdinand]

I have to confess that I have always found the Apply, Auto and Pause tools in the filter panel confusing, in terms of how they operate and relate.  But I've always been in a minority on this point. 

For a new user the meaning of the "Active" filter is unclear, and it's unclear that it relates to the lower sub-panels.  Yes, it's in the help file and yes once you know it's ok, but it's not intuitive.

In V3.6 I have my commonly used filters saved in the filter tool drop-down and they're quick to invoke.  The filter panel in V5 is much more powerful, and with power comes a little complexity.  There are more mouse clicks in V5 to activate a filter, although if that feature request to enable us to expand the display area of the list of saved filters is realised, then that will help a little. 

[Gerd]

Hi,

as I saw, the names of the functions in the Filter Manager are in alphabetic order. May be, the Active-function should be placed as last one and fixed located ...

Regards
Gerd

[BenAW]

The Active selector is the one you probably use most......
Why place that one in a difficult to reach position?

[Gerd]

Hi,

the Active-function is the only one, that is related to other filter-selections, e.g. "Files from today" works independant from the Active-function. Therefore it might be clearer to place THIS one (Active) direct above the filter-selections.

Regards
Gerd

[BenAW]

What you seem to be missing is that the Active selecting is NEEDED to make the filters below the Filter Manager work at all.
See attached screenshot.
I have a File Format filter on JPG, an Orientation & Dimensions filter to filter images with max 1000x1000 pixels.
As shown the Filter will ONLY filter for GeoTagged files.
If I want to include the other two filters I have to select "Active" as well.
Only then I have a filter that selects Geotagged JPG's with maximum size 1000x1000 pixels.

So moving the "Active" selector to the last position in the Filter Manager where it can be invisible if you have a long list of saved filters is a bad idea imo.

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[Gerd]

Hi Ben,

for this my first suggestion to give it a fixed place!

[BenAW]

for this my first suggestion to give it a fixed place!

It is fixed, at the top of the list, where it makes the most sense imo.

[Gerd]

Hi Ben,

it irritates, because the settings below do not have anything to do with filter-selections. The Active-function has only influence to the filter selections, not to the settigs direct below Active!

Due to the fact, that it is on the top, bold and Rd/Orange colored, it looks like a heading for ALL following functions.

[Ferdinand]

This exchange demonstrates my point made above:

"For a new user the meaning of the "Active" filter is unclear, and it's unclear that it relates to the lower sub-panels.  Yes, it's in the help file and yes once you know it's ok, but it's not intuitive."

Long-term users understand this, but it's not intuitive for new users.  While the help file is a useful resource and should be read more, are we really saying that you have to read the help file in order to be able to use even basic things in IMatch5? 

That said, I'm not sure how I would rearrange the layout to make this clearer.  It depends on what can be done with the user interface toolkit.

[Mario]

That said, I'm not sure how I would rearrange the layout to make this clearer.  It depends on what can be done with the user interface toolkit.

Well, I'm all ears...

The principal idea is that the Active entry (at the top of the list and highlighted) represents the active filter settings - what you see in the filter panel right now. You can combine the active settings with previously stored filters, and you can also temporarily disable the active filter to use only one or more previously stored filters.

The Pause button disables the filter panel entirely, independent from how many filters you have currently enabled. Naturally, if you have only Active enabled, disabling it has the same effect as pausing the Filter Panel.

What we need to achieve

• The active filter settings (what you see in the filter panel) must be in the filter list
  
• Since the active filter settings are the most used, I still think that Active should be at the top, and not sorted to the bottom of the list where you have to scroll to reach it
  
• The user has to be able to combine the active filter settings with any number of stored filters
  
• The user has to be able to temporarily disable the active filter settings in order to apply only one or more stored filters
  
• The user must be able to quickly disable the Filter Panel
  

[BenAW]

For me the current setup of the filter panel is fine.

I've suggested some time ago to change "Active" into something more clearly, like:
- Use selected panels
- Activate selected panels

Another suggestion was to move the Pause button to the main image page, were it is more accessible when the filter panel is in auto-hide.
Perhaps even make the bar with the image counts etc. the pause switch for the filter.
The bar changes colour with the state of the filter, so why not make it the switch as well 

[Gerd]

Hi,

I think , if a function is switchen on or activ, related panels/windows or what else should be also visible as "activ".

Maybe switched off ones are only visible in light grey ...

Regards
Gerd

[Ferdinand]

I assume I will get some resistance to what I am about to say - I always do when I suggest changes to the Filter panel, as some like it exactly as it is.   I don't need any changes for myself, but here goes anyway ...

The principal idea is that the Active entry (at the top of the list and highlighted) represents the active filter settings - what you see in the filter panel right now.

Yes, I understand this, but to a novice user this connection is not clear.  How is someone looking at the filter panel for the first time supposed to understand the connection between the Active entry and the lower sub-panels?  There's no obvious visual link.  And there's no functional link either - by which I mean that if clicking on one of the sub-panels to enable it also automatically enabled Active, then novice users might work it out, but a it stands I can see people clicking around a lot and not being able to understand why filters are not working.  And for something as basic as this I think you ought to be able to easily work out how to enable a filter without reading the high-quality help file.

What we need to achieve

   
• The active filter settings (what you see in the filter panel) must be in the filter list

This makes it hard.  You could rename it, as Ben suggests.  But personally I'd pull Active out of that box and place it below the list of saved filters and format it in such a way that it's clear that you are turning on or off the lower sub-panels.  Not sure if you can do this with your toolkit.  In any case it's an odd fit in that box, as the rest of those items are *saved* filters, whereas Active is *transitory*.
I also wonder if Active is really needed, given that we have an overall pause button.  I'd have thought that the pause button was just as effective in meeting your last three dot points as is Active.   

[BenAW]

I also wonder if Active is really needed, given that we have an overall pause button.  I'd have thought that the pause button was just as effective in meeting your last three dot points as is Active.

This is not how "Active" works. eg I have a combination filter of 2 or more panels. Active switches these On or Off together.
Now combine this filter set with one or more stored filters in the list.
The Filter Pause button switches the whole combination of stored filters and panels On/Off together, while Active switches only the panels together.
So Active is needed in the stored filter list to make these combinations possible.

Only thing needed imo is a way to make it obvious that "Active" is the switch for all Filter Panels together.
A catchy description should be enough. The functionality is great as it is.

[JohnZeman]

I understand your point Ben but I also tend to agree with Ferdinand's general assessment.  Maybe instead of an Active checkbox there could be an active icon indicating a manual filter has been enabled in the below filter modules along with one or more of the saved filters.

[BenAW]

I understand your point Ben but I also tend to agree with Ferdinand's general assessment.  Maybe instead of an Active checkbox there could be an active icon indicating a manual filter has been enabled in the below filter modules along with one or more of the saved filters.

Why create extra work when it is not needed?
eg. I have a filter that uses 4 panels (extreme I know). I combine this set with one stored filter.
Now I want to see just the stored filter, to check it's result. In your setup I would have to go to EACH individual panel to switch it off.
In the current setup I just de-select Active. This is not an improvement in my book.

[JohnZeman]

That's a good point too Ben.  Once one understands how the filter panel works, it makes sense, it's arriving at that understanding that seems to be the problem.

[Richard]

I am a big believer in the expression that says "If all else fails, RTFM". Since Ben has a firm grasp on how filters work, maybe he could help make the Help topic easier to understand. Then again, maybe that is like asking Mario to do it. Sometimes a person can understand a topic too well to write good instructions. 

[Mario]

I can make some quick changes, but nothing substantial before IMatch 5 is officially released. Too much logic is involved with the workings of the filter list. I doubt that moving the active filter out of the list and putting it to a separate place, e.g. as a button below the list will solve any problems one may have with the Filter Panel.

What I already did now is to disable toolbar buttons when no filter is selected in the Filter Manger list. So the Pause button will no longer be available when no filter is selected (or only the Active filter but without any enabled panels). So the initial question in this thread should never come up again.

I can also rename the Active to something different. How about naming it just Filter Panel?

Renaming this is easy and I will only have to re-read all related help topics and swap the name, plus re-doing the samples and making new screen shots where needed.

A fresh copy of IMatch always has Active enabled and a small set of filters loaded. This is apparently sufficient for most users to grasp the basic filter concept. For all else, reading the help topic usually answers most questions. A quick search of the community does not reveal many questions about filters in general, rather specific questions about specific filters. A indicator - either nobody is using filters yet, or most users can make them work.

[Ferdinand]

I expected some push-back on the idea of dropping Active.  It's a short-cut to enabling and disabling a set of the sub-panels.  The issue is whether this benefit is sufficient to the wider user base to justify the confusion it seems to cause.

But I stand my my suggestions on how to reorganise where it is placed in order to make its meaning clear.  I also like the idea of automatically enabling Active if a sub-panel is checked.

I am a big believer in the expression that says "If all else fails, RTFM".

Indeed.  But if you have to read the manual to understand basic things, because they're not intuitive to the intelligent novice, then there's a problem IMHO.  And no-one has said that the help is deficient on this topic, only that it's not intuitive.

[Richard]

if you have to read the manual to understand basic things

I have been driving vehicles for over 60 years and do not consider myself a novice. When I buy a new vehicle, I read the manual regardless of how intuitive things seem to be. All too often a control has additional functions that are not obvious or intuitive. Sometimes RTFM is the only way to learn about these additional features. If every function could be made intuitive to every possible driver, a manual would not be needed. IMO, that same applies to IMatch.

[BenAW]

Imo the misconception is that the Filter is something simple that should be intuitively useable.
It's not. Mario has created an incredibly versatile tool, and yes it takes a little effort to get to know it.
Dumbing it down is the wrong solution for a non-existant problem imo.

[Gerd]

Yes, a program must be, as far as possible, self-explaining. For us, more ore less, but experienced IM-users, it is quick saved in our brain, but for new users, who compare this program with that from other competitors, is the first contact and view crucial ...
If it looks too complicate, they choose another one.

I also tried to put the functionality, that I use, from IM36 into Lightroom ... yes, I got all my categories working in LR ... but then ... from my point of view is the UI of LR genius ... if you understand the philosophy of a program, you try also more complex functions and you feel happy with that. That's the same with IM ... I love it!

I have by myself developed programs for customers (SQL-based) with a Windows-UI and a good UI takes at the end more work and effort as the functions inside. The Ahh and Ohh you get with the UI, not with the functions ...

You see it here with this simple example with one function: Active

Regards
Gerd

[BenAW]

I can make some quick changes, but nothing substantial before IMatch 5 is officially released.

Perhaps something like this screenshot, kind of Filter for Beginners.
First increase the height of the Filter Manager 
- create a long list with "saved" Filters
- Combine Show all Panels and Hide all Panels into one selection switch (Advanced or something like that)
- when Advanced is deselected (default) remove Active from view (or perhaps grey out is better) and hide the list with panels
- when Advanced is selected the panels that have a mark will come into view and Active as well.
- find a better name for Active.

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[BenAW]

Comment in another thread:

This piece of software is just phantastic. I know, it is a beta version, but it just has already incredible working features, be it the overall workspace system, the new wonderful filter system with easy to build queries, the GPS stuff or the great slide viewer.

[Mario]

I have renamed Active to Filter Panel
(@Translators: Please update your translations accordingly once 108 is out)

I've updated the help and added an extra section about the Filter Panel entry in the list.

When a user makes a change in a deactivated filter, IMatch displays a tip so the user knows that he needs to check the box in the caption to enable the filter. The caption bar also flashes for two seconds (only for the first change).

We already have a lot of predefined filters. A new IMatch database starts with:

+ Bookmarked Files
+ Dotted
+ Files from this week
+ Files from today
+ Files with pending Metadata Write-back
+ Hide Buddy Files
+ Hide Off-line Files
+ Hide Rejected Files
+ Pinned
+ Rated 3 or better
+ Rejects
+ Without Label
+ Without Rating

[BenAW]

I have renamed Active to Filter Panel

Perhaps "Filter Panel(s)" is better?

[BenAW]

While we're discussing Filters:
The list with Filter Panels under "Configure the Filter Panel" closes every time you (de-)select a panel.
Could it stay open as long as the mouse is over the list and make multiple selections possible?
If yes, feature request?

[BenAW]

We already have a lot of predefined filters. A new IMatch database starts with:

+ Bookmarked Files
+ Dotted
+ Files from this week
+ Files from today
+ Files with pending Metadata Write-back
.....

I added the long list of saved filters to my suggestion to prevent complaints that the filter is too simple by users who hadn't found the "Advanced " section yet.....

[Mario]

While we're discussing Filters:
The list with Filter Panels under "Configure the Filter Panel" closes every time you (de-)select a panel.
Could it stay open as long as the mouse is over the list and make multiple selections possible?
If yes, feature request?

Not possible. It's a menu and menus in Windows close as soon as you have selected an entry. I didn't want to overcomplicate things by adding yet another custom dialog an all the code behind. My assumption is that most users will rarely use this once they have the filters they use regularly. No need to waste two days of development time on this.

[cytochrome]

I have renamed Active to Filter Panel
(@Translators: Please update your translations accordingly once 108 is out)....

Yesterday, on my own initiative (and of course I have not propagatedit  via Turtoise) I had renamed Active following Ben's suggestion as "Active les filtres cochés" (activate the marked filters) in my french IM5. I would have prefered "Active les nouveaux filtres cochés"...

The ambiguity for a new filter user  (as Gerd and Ferdinand noted it above) is that there are 2 sets of filters, those saved, and those just setup  now by the user. And Active and "Enable/Disable" have different effects. The name whatever -or the visual organization of the panel- should make this clear and self-evident (without Help), otherwise one can be stuck for over an hour to set up a simple filter (happened to me ) which is frustrating and might discourage some.

Francis

[Ferdinand]

Indeed.